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From Brian Fox <bri...@infinity.nu>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Approve the release of Shindig Incubator 1.0
Date Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:30:39 GMT
Henning, I asked some specific questions on the source release over at 
legal-discuss, can we consolidate the requirements gathering over there?

Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> Calm down, Jason. No one was attacking Maven.
>
> The Apache Software Foundation requires a project (not just an incubator
> podling. All projects) to release source in a form that can be used to
> recreate the binaries.
>
> For the current state of the Shindig release, this is not possible. Noone
> was saying anything else.
>
> For Apache, we release source code that is immediately consumable to users
> by downloading an artifact from our servers through www.apache.org/dist and
> potentially be able to rebuild the artifact.
>
> In general, this is a tarball / zip of the contents of a Subversion tag.
>
> Everything beyond that is
>
> - optional
> - a convenience to our users
>
> This especially goes to
>
> - binary archives (whether these are .jar archives in Java or Binary builds
> for a platform in non-Java land)
> - source/javadoc in another, better consumable form for IDEs
>
> Supporting these is nice to users, but the required part is the tarball that
> I can go into and say <build-command> (be it ant, maven or make) and get
> something that can be used.
>
> This is not the case for Shinig in its current state. Whether this is
> acceptable or not to the Incubator PMC members is another question.
>
>     Ciao
>         Henning
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 09:49, Jason van Zyl <jvanzyl@sonatype.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> On 26-Apr-09, at 8:25 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>>
>>  On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 6:46 AM, Vincent Siveton
>>     
>>> <vincent.siveton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  You need to do a checkout of the tag to build it.
>>>       
>>>> The source artifacts provide only java source, no build file.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> -1.
>>>
>>> As others have pointed out, the ASF releases Open SOURCE, not Open
>>> Binaries and part of the policy is that the distributed artifact is
>>> first and foremost a buildable source tarball. Without it, it is not a
>>> release.
>>> You may have system requirements ("thou shalt need Maven 2.0.6 or
>>> 2.0.9" ) and you should provide full build instructions to produce the
>>> projects binary. And if you distribute a binary, it should be the same
>>> thing that gets produced by following your instructions.
>>>
>>> And the above is not really up for debate either. At the end of the
>>> day, people will rely on tarballs, checksums (download integrity) and
>>> signatures (manipulation integrity), and those are the primary
>>> artifacts that Apache Infrastructure will archive and get mirrored
>>> around the world.
>>> Maven artifacts are really nice to have for Maven users, but is
>>> exactly that; "Nice to have".
>>>
>>> Now, you are free to go banging on Maven's door that their built-in
>>> workflow doesn't support the Apache policy very well.
>>>
>>>       
>> Don't spread FUD like that. You don't have any idea how Maven releases work
>> so I'll take a moment and explain it to you.
>>
>> For a release like Maven we have N modules, where each module produces a
>> JAR, and each of those is released. Each JAR carries with it the POM inside
>> it, but is in a form which can be automatically utilized by IDE integration
>> to automatically be downloaded and integrated with debuggers. All the legal
>> bits are in the JARs and legally intact as it were. The blue print to
>> actually build that individual JAR is in the JAR by default in Maven. You
>> can't just unpack that source JAR and build it and that's for a couple
>> reasons: the first is that it's generally useless and the second is that we
>> create a source archive of the entire release with all the modules which is
>> what we recommend. As with Maven, the tagged sources for the build are
>> distributed along with the binaries. This is a matter of setting up a source
>> assembly, not hard to do.
>>
>> That said, show me any non-Maven project that makes individual JARs that
>> have the capability of rebuilding themselves. There aren't any here at
>> Apache. What gets produced is a overall source archive. And show me anything
>> as advanced and useful to developers where grabbing the source JARs for
>> debugging is transparent or materializing sources from binary artifact
>> coordinates is a button click. Again, nothing does that besides Maven and
>> the corresponding IDE integrations. So Maven adheres to any standard for the
>> overall release but goes way above and beyond to actually produce something
>> far more useful for actually doing work.
>>
>> So please don't try to explain to people what Maven does when you don't
>> actually understand it yourself. What gets released as the N modules is
>> complementary to aggregate release which is compliant with Apache. So if
>> Shindig doesn't have the overarching source archive that's not hard to add.
>> But there is not a single non-Maven build at Apache where a JAR emanating
>> from multi-JAR build where that JAR carries with it the information to build
>> itself. You are confusing an aggregate release with the releases of the
>> individual components which is what Maven users need to consume. We account
>> for both for the case where a user grabs the distribution to use, and the
>> case where someone is building a Maven plugin (most often in an IDE where
>> Maven is not installed) and transparently grabs the dependencies -- the
>> individual JARs from a Maven release -- so they can build their project.
>>
>> We do the necessary and the nice to have. More working developers actually
>> care about the nice to have.
>>
>>
>>  They won't be
>>     
>>> surprised, and IIRC there has been a lot of discussion over there to
>>> make it happen.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> --
>>> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
>>> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>>>
>>> I  live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
>>> I  work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
>>> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> http://twitter.com/jvanzyl
>> http://twitter.com/SonatypeNexus
>> http://twitter.com/SonatypeM2E
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Simplex sigillum veri. (Simplicity is the seal of truth.)
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>     
>
>   

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