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From "William A. Rowe, Jr." <>
Subject Re: Allow incubator releases? [was: way too wordy]
Date Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:45:41 GMT
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:21 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr.
> <> wrote:
>> Drop any pretense that the incubator has a say
>> over the already-done code releases, and we can seriously start the real
>> discussion, which would have been "motivating projects to graduate" if we
>> hadn't wasted several hundred posts on a silly topic.
> Uhhh... I might misunderstand your English here (mine ain't that refined);
> Are you suggesting that the Incubator PMC has no say over code
> releases of podlings?

Pretty much, that's it.  The code is voted released by the Incubator PMC
under the Apache License.  The ASF places exactly those AL limits on the
code (very few) and enforces those limits, alone.

To have a successful release vote, we have lots of extra rules, such as
how the Podling vote happens, the IPMC vote ratifies it, rat and other
methods validate that the copyrights, licenses and such line up, that
there is a DISCLAIMER in the package, etc.  If preconditions don't happen
they won't have the successful release vote they wanted.

The Incubator PMC has a strong say over what appears on incubator.a.o/*
pages, what is added to or revoked from www.a.o/dist/incubator/*, and so
forth and so on.  But that's the extent.  Postconditions that aren't in
the license don't exist.  You can't say "Commercial use is disallowed",
and so forth.

> My stance is still; Releases from the Incubator are ASF releases of
> code, no different than another PMC. IMHO, the disclaimers are not
> helping anyone, not the podling, not the IPMC, not the downstream
> projects, not the public, not the repository management, not the tool
> chain...
> So, I still think; WTFing Point?

Well we could drop the DISCLAIMER requirement, that's another thread
entirely :)

> Now, we can deal with such situation in two possible ways;
>  * Accept that projects eventually dies, and that everyone downstream
> needs to deal with that, and that downstream users are capable of
> basic SWOT analysis and let podlings release as much as they want. I
> would like (as a Maven user) the <groupId> in Maven artifacts to be
> org.apache.incubator.<podling> until the graduation occurs.
>  * Not accept podlings to release code. Possibly having the "final
> act" of the podling to do a release, which effectuates the graduation.
> I am Ok with either of these, since I think that downstream users
> ain't stupid and more capable than I think we give them credit for.

How about a brand new idea?

Lay down a Milestone-style chart of what it takes to operate as an ASF
project.  Demonstrate community of meritocracy, add committers or ppmc
members based on contributions, complete IP review, and then... and only
then... they hit the release milestone.  One or two releases later, they
are ejected from the Incubator - either to the target PMC or as a TLP.

So releases would reflect the project is probably ready to graduate, the
only difference would be that the incubator PMC wants to see this done
right before calling the podling baked.



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