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From Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>
Subject Re: On incubating releases
Date Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:33:39 GMT
On 27-Sep-08, at 9:05 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

> Unfortunately a typical response from you. Guess there's no point in
> even trying..
>

Where the line of reasoning is unsound and shows a cavalier disregard  
for users there would be no point.

I am a practical person above all else, and I listen and do where it  
makes sense. I didn't make a huge fuss while people were hurling  
insults at Maven developers and the PMC about the PGP nonsense, I had  
someone implement a solution and now it's done. There is full support  
in the new artifact/transport layer called Mercury for on the fly  
generation and validation of PGP keys. A rework was being done anyway,  
not hard to add.

The argument about redistribution where the license already clearly  
embodies the policy is what I find inane. The practical solution to  
that is that I've asked Maven PMC member to read up on this list and  
hope to have a vote next week about what our stand is on third party  
policies which contravene distribution rights provided by an  
artifact's license. Whether that be restricting distribution or the  
addition of requirements. I really don't want to get into the policy  
business because if we set the precedent of making an exception for  
the Apache Incubator it will never end. The best I think we can do is  
follow the law. If you want a different distribution policy for  
incubating artifacts or have additional requirements then make an  
addendum to the license.

If the decision is to allow third party policy to alter standard  
behavior then the onus will be on the Maven developers to implement a  
extension point by which you can execute your policy. The onus will be  
on policy creators to implement the policy enforcement. If we allow  
these changes then the Maven developers cannot be responsible for  
implementing policy enforcement for everyone that asks. That just  
doesn't scale and it's not our job. And we will also need help with  
development resources to ensure that policies can't easily be knocked  
out and circumvented which will require testing and I assume all those  
in favor here will be completely willing to help implement and test  
these policy enforcement mechanisms.

If the decisions is not allow policy to alter the rights of the  
already defined license, then we sync everything. Life goes on.

> -- dims
>
> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 8:25 PM, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org>  
> wrote:
>>
>> On 27-Sep-08, at 7:46 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>> Exactly why in previous discussions i already asked..."Can the maven
>>> folks provide another way to do this?" (not showing disclaimers
>>> necessarily, something that the user has to do one time works too.
>>> Example: apt-get and keys)
>>>
>>
>> We could do anything, but I'm not implementing pop ups. But you can.
>>
>> On a download event the build could stop and make people read "An  
>> ode to the
>> Incubator: How important we are, and how like children you all  
>> are". Or we
>> could make them listen to that enduring audio classic: "Did someone  
>> in the
>> incubator just make something up that no one has ever heard of  
>> before?" That
>> one always makes me laugh (cry). Maybe we can humor the users in  
>> the hopes
>> they don't get pissed off with us because we intentionally made  
>> things
>> harder then they have to be.
>>
>> I'll hope that people rely on the same tool that keeps them from  
>> sniffing
>> the ends of loaded shotguns, or bathing with toasters. That would  
>> be the
>> brain.
>>
>>> -- dims
>>>
>>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 7:30 PM, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org>  
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 27-Sep-08, at 7:03 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am asking because, the way the situation is being portrayed is  
>>>>> that
>>>>> anyone using maven is totally unable to use the incubator
>>>>> artifacts...that's wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's just amazingly inconvenient.
>>>>
>>>> Take the 10 minutes (and that's a conservative number) that every  
>>>> user
>>>> goes
>>>> through groping around trying to figure out how setup the  
>>>> repositories
>>>> and
>>>> multiply that by 5k (which is not unreasonable for something as  
>>>> popular
>>>> as
>>>> JSecurity) and now multiply that by the number of projects and  
>>>> we're
>>>> literally getting into man years of wasted time. To consciously  
>>>> inflict
>>>> this
>>>> on people when it's not necessary is exacting a serious amount of  
>>>> damage.
>>>> Every user who can't build something here as a first time user is  
>>>> going
>>>> to
>>>> make their first experience a bad one.
>>>>
>>>> For us to pontificate here about how we should be protecting a  
>>>> generally
>>>> intelligent user base while wasting man years of users' valuable   
>>>> time to
>>>> me
>>>> is wrong.
>>>>
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> dims
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 6:46 PM, Davanum Srinivas <davanum@gmail.com

>>>>> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jukka,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see where you are going with this. But what i cannot for the  
>>>>>> life of
>>>>>> me understand is why adding a tiny snippet of xml to project  
>>>>>> B's pom
>>>>>> is so objectionable (adding another repo)? No one has yet  
>>>>>> answered
>>>>>> that question for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> thanks,
>>>>>> dims
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 5:36 PM, Jukka Zitting
>>>>>> <jukka.zitting@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Davanum Srinivas <davanum@gmail.com

>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know...hence my VOTE was what it was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So my questions go out to people who opposed the proposed policy
>>>>>>> change:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Is it OK for project A to bundle the incubating dependency?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) If yes, why should things be more complex for project B?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BR,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jukka Zitting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jason van Zyl
>>>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>>>> jason at sonatype dot com
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Simplex sigillum veri. (Simplicity is the seal of truth.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>> Jason van Zyl
>> Founder,  Apache Maven
>> jason at sonatype dot com
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Simplex sigillum veri. (Simplicity is the seal of truth.)
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>

Thanks,

Jason

----------------------------------------------------------
Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
jason at sonatype dot com
----------------------------------------------------------

happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
and sit softly on your shoulder ...

  -- Thoreau


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