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From "Les Hazlewood" <lhazlew...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Windmill
Date Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:11:22 GMT
Hi Mikeal,

Excellent answer, thanks very much for the clarification.  I myself have
enjoyed using Selenium in the past, and Windmill sounds like a definite
improvement.  It sounds great - I think it would be a worthwhile Incubator
project.

+1 (non-binding)

Thanks,

Les

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Mikeal Rogers <mikeal.rogers@gmail.com>wrote:

> Of those 3 it's the most like Selenium.
>
> As far as I know the "proxy spoof" method was pioneered by Selenium and
> we've continued to use/evolve that method of "tricking" the browser's same
> domain security policy. Our implementation of the test API has been very
> different from selenium as is our proxy <-> javascript communication
> workflow.
>
> Since our initial release we've done a lot of feature work around the
> recording, debugging, and test editing workflows. We've also done a good
> amount of work both in the proxy and in the javascript layer to make having
> a single test move around different target domains remain seamless and
> transparent.
>
> It's been a while since I used Selenium so I can't comment on their current
> feature list compared to ours, but at the time we decided to write Windmill
> we were incredibly frustrated with the process of maintaining tests written
> in Selenium in an environment where the target product changed rapidly. We
> found that debugging and editing a test after changes to the product to be
> as difficult as writing the entire test all over again from scratch and have
> continued to improve windmill around our own use cases as well as user
> community feedback.
>
> I hope that answers your question, this was a fairly high level answer, if
> you'd like I can go over any of those features/differences in more detail
> and point you at any code.
>
> -Mikeal
>
>
> On Aug 14, 2008, at August 14, 20081:40 PM, Les Hazlewood wrote:
>
>  Just out of curiosity, where does this fit in versus, say, Selenium, MaxQ,
>> Canoo WebTest, and others?
>>
>> There's nothing wrong if Windmill does the same stuff - I'm just curious
>> what it can do in comparison.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Les
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Mikeal Rogers <mikeal.rogers@gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  This is a proposal to enter the incubator.
>>>
>>> See http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/WindmillProposal for the most
>>> up-to-date version.
>>>
>>> We look forward to comments and discussion.
>>>
>>> = Abstract =
>>>
>>> The goal of Windmill is to build the best tool for automated testing of
>>> dynamic Web applications across all major browsers.
>>>
>>> = Proposal =
>>>
>>> Windmill provides a full-stack automation solution for dynamic
>>> Web-application testing.
>>>
>>> It accomplishes this by implementing an extensive test API in JavaScript,
>>> and providing an intelligent proxy that can overcome the browser's
>>> same-domain security policy. The test API allows a single test to run on
>>> every major browser across all major operating systems.
>>>
>>> Windmill boasts a wide range of debugging and test-authoring tools that
>>> make test writing, debugging, and editing a more streamlined process.
>>>
>>> = Background =
>>>
>>> Windmill was created at the Open Source Applications Foundation by Mikeal
>>> Rogers and Adam Christian to test the Chandler Server Web UI. It was
>>> announced more broadly at OSCON 2007 and has since enjoyed a wide range
>>> of
>>> use and contributions.
>>>
>>> In January 2008, all the full-time, paid contributors from OSAF moved on
>>> to
>>> other employment. The project has since retained steady contribution
>>> despite
>>> having no full-time, paid contributors.
>>>
>>> In July 2008, we proposed the project move its hosting away from OSAF
>>> because of uncertainty about long term sustainability -- due to OSAF's
>>> transition to a smaller-scale, mostly volunteer structure.
>>>
>>> = Rationale =
>>>
>>> Windmill was created to fulfill a need for a better dynamic
>>> Web-application
>>> testing tool after much frustration with existing solutions. We believe
>>> it
>>> has accomplished this goal and continues to improve, with ongoing, open
>>> interaction with the community.
>>>
>>> What the project currently lacks is clear direction, leadership, and
>>> process. We believe the project would benefit greatly from Incubator
>>> mentorship, which would allow it to see much wider adoption, and grow a
>>> broader community.
>>>
>>> = Current Status =
>>>
>>> == Meritocracy ==
>>>
>>> Since the project's inception, its development has been coordinated
>>> through
>>> collaborative decision-making (e.g., "+1 voting") on the mailing list,
>>> and
>>> open discussion on IRC.
>>>
>>> == Community ==
>>>
>>> Although the list of Core Developers has remained small we've welcomed
>>> outside contributions. Along with a few small but good patches, we've
>>> received some very good bugs and numerous features requests from the
>>> community. Our wiki documentation is being continually improved by our
>>> users.
>>>
>>> We also have a very good reputation of providing support and resolving
>>> problems on IRC (#windmill on irc.freenode.net).A number of our users
>>> have
>>> stayed around to help others in need.
>>>
>>> == Core Developers ==
>>>
>>> Mikeal Rogers (Most of the Python code)
>>> Adam Christian (Most of the JavaScript code)
>>>
>>> == Alignment ==
>>>
>>> Since Windmill was started at OSAF, it has enjoyed contributions from a
>>> variety of paid staff at OSAF. All of those employees are now employed
>>> elsewhere -- below are the ones that are still active.
>>>
>>> * Mikeal Rogers (Mozillla)
>>> * Adam Christian (Slide)
>>> * Matthew Eernisse (Seesmic)
>>>
>>> = Known Risks =
>>>
>>> == Orphaned Products ==
>>>
>>> The project has survived the loss of paid contributions and continues to
>>> grow in use, despite a clear lack of leadership (I have only myself to
>>> blame).
>>>
>>> == Inexperience with Open Source ==
>>>
>>> All the contributors have a history in open-source development and the
>>> policies of the project were developed with the help of Ted Leung.
>>>
>>> == Reliance on Salaried Developers ==
>>>
>>> As of July 2008 one developer is paid part-time for his work on Windmill.
>>> The rest of the contributions are all volunteer at this time.
>>>
>>> == A Excessive Fascination with the Apache Brand ==
>>>
>>> One can't ignore the impact the Apache brand has on a project, but what
>>> this project needs isn't branding -- it's the benefit of Incubator
>>> mentorship, direction, leadership, and process.
>>>
>>> = Documentation =
>>>
>>> http://windmill.osafoundation.org/
>>>
>>> = Initial Source =
>>>
>>> The code is currently hosted on OSAF's Subversion server.
>>>
>>> http://svn.osafoundation.org/windmill/
>>>
>>> = Source and Intellectual Property Submission Plan =
>>>
>>> We've gotten consent from OSAF to move the project to new location.
>>>
>>> = External Dependencies =
>>>
>>> We have a long list of external Python dependencies. These dependencies
>>> are
>>> managed via setuptools and are not distributed with the Windmill product
>>> and
>>> as such should not need be a licensing concern.
>>>
>>> = Required Resources =
>>>
>>> == Mailing lists ==
>>>
>>> * windmill-commits
>>> * windmill-dev
>>> * windmill-users
>>>
>>> == Subversion Directory ==
>>>
>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/windmill
>>>
>>> == Issue Tracking ==
>>>
>>> JIRA Windmill
>>>
>>> = Initial Committers =
>>>
>>> * Mikeal Rogers
>>> * Adam Christian
>>> * Matthew Eernisse
>>>
>>> = Sponsors =
>>>
>>> == Champion ==
>>>
>>> Ted Leung
>>>
>>> == Nominated Mentors ==
>>>
>>> * Ted Leung
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>
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