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From Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Do we really need an incubator?
Date Tue, 08 Jul 2008 03:06:11 GMT

On Jul 7, 2008, at 6:59 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

> Dan,
>
> Seriously, Can you please give me one concrete  instance where a user
> gave up because it was too hard?

It falls into a few situations:
1) Without stuff in the main repo, you cannot do plugins that do  
things similar to the "mvn jetty:run" and have maven pick them up  
without wacky changes to your ~/.m2/settings.xml which would then  
affect all projects.

2) It IS a support burden on the community as people ask "why can't it  
find it?" even if you document the hell out of it.   People tend to  
not read docs when they expect their tool to work like it always  
works.   Maven people expect to just declare dependencies and have it  
work.   When it doesn't they get frustrated and blame the project for  
not deploying things correctly and move on.

3) This is the killer one: we did have xfire folks not able to migrate  
as the corporate firewalls and proxies and such would NOT allow access  
to people.apache.org.   (to be fair, they didn't allow direct access  
to central either, but their internal repo managers did have access,  
but only to very limitted repos like central and java.net)

4) A couple of the recent versions of the archetype plugin was unable  
to create projects from archetypes not available in central.  Yes, it  
was a bug in the plugin, but it affected any archetypes not in  
central.   With mavens < 2.0.9's broken "automatically grab the latest  
plugin" thing, creating projects from archetypes for anything not in  
central was impossible.  (yes, that was a bug in the plugin and the  
maven team did fix it fairly quickly, but only incubator projects  
would have been affected.....)

So yes, there are instances.


> Again, Are u stating that removing this restriction would have reduced
> the time taken to graduate from 2 years to 1 year?

We'll never know.  It certainly affected some of the features we  
concentrated on and thus may or may not have affected who we could  
have attracted as committers.   It would all be conjecture.   I know  
it DID prevent people migrating from xfire (see above) so I know our  
user base was lower than it could have been.


> We are *NOT* here to rubber stamp external code. Which is what we  
> will become.

Huh?   We would be approving proper Apache Incubator releases and  
making sure the meet Apache legal requirements prior to release.      
How is that rubber stamping external code?


Basically, IMO, if a release from an incubator project completely  
meets ALL the legal requirements (none of the "it's ok, fix it for  
next time" things), it legally can go to central and it should.   
(also, this means the project needs to have all the CLA's for the  
imported code, all the LGPL stuff resolved, etc...)   Saying incubator  
releases can only be used in places and with tools that will prompt  
with a "this is an incubator artifact, us it? y/n"  is, IMO, placing a  
field of use restriction on them which is against our own ideals.

Should maven have a feature that the user can enable to allow various  
filtering and stuff, certainly.   That's a great idea.   For users  
that care, that would be great.    Should it be required?  IMO, no.    
The license the artifacts are distributed under doesn't require it and  
thus, legally, it's not required.


Dan



> My feeling is that pmc members are taking their mentor role more
> prominence over incubator pmc role which is to make sure we setup
> meaningful mechanisms to make sure all aspects are balanced.
>
> In this specific case, a trivial road block has been lifted and
> incubator is no longer what it is supposed to be. There are no longer
> any checks/balances in the system,
>
> So we should just promote IP Clearance as the primary mechanism and
> get existing pmc's or even this PMC to just go ahead and rubber stamp
> code and get it over with.
>
> thanks,
> dims
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Daniel Kulp <dkulp@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Jul 7, 2008, at 5:09 PM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry...Need to take this off my chest before the official VOTE.
>>>
>>> Looking at the maven repo thread, begs the question. Do we really  
>>> need
>>> an incubator?
>>>
>>> Isn't it just a IP Clearance SVN now once people have their way with
>>> no distinction at all between incubator and non-incubator code?
>>>
>>> What incentives are there left to graduate? How come a little bit of
>>> pain that makes something obvious to end users is such a no-no?  
>>> Why is
>>> it such a big deal to remove one tiny pebble in their path? A lot of
>>> folks have made it thru...including CXF. gathering users on the  
>>> merits
>>> of their code/community. It's not like the pebble stopped users from
>>> trying things out. So what's the big deal?
>>
>> Honestly, I think CXF would have graduated significantly sooner if  
>> the
>> central maven repo was used.   We specifically did not do a lot of  
>> "maven"
>> things (like creating archtypes and such) due to the extra  
>> difficulty in
>> using those things.   We don't yet use maven for any of the samples/ 
>> demos,
>> etc....    It IS a major barrier for a lot people so we didn't  
>> concentrate
>> on it.   Had the code gone to central, we could have worked on that  
>> as well
>> which would have opened up new opportunities for "mavenites" to get
>> involved.
>>
>> So, my question is, if Apache is about "Community over code", why  
>> are we
>> putting up barriers to getting the code if that is also creating  
>> barriers to
>> building the community?   If the code is a proper release (legally  
>> OK,
>> etc...), making it hard to use/get hinders the building of the  
>> community.
>> Do we like projects taking 2 years to graduate or would we prefer  
>> that time
>> to be shorter?
>>
>> So, to answer your question:  yes, I think the incubator is  
>> important.   It
>> does legal vetting, but it also makes sure the communities are acting
>> proper, learning apache ways, etc....   But the incubator should  
>> HELP the
>> communities grow, not hinder it.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My 2 cents,
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> dims
>>>
>>> --
>>> Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> ---
>> Daniel Kulp
>> dkulp@apache.org
>> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Davanum Srinivas :: http://davanum.wordpress.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>

---
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org
http://www.dankulp.com/blog





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