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From Jason van Zyl <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Do we really need an incubator?
Date Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:28:45 GMT

On 9-Jul-08, at 4:42 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:

> Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Noel J. Bergman <>  
>> wrote:
>>> However, the Maven repository situation has little to do with the  
>>> need for
>>> an Incubator.
>> Obviously you choose to pick out everying Ron's writing about the
>> flaws in Maven / the Maven repository while at the same time  
>> carefully
>> ignoring everything he's writing about the "necessity" of a special
>> incubator repository.
> I think you need to reread Roy's post, which spelled out exactly why  
> he
> believes "There is no reason for a separate repository."
> Noel isn't cherry picking, but your comment is flailing about  
> without any
> contribution to what that necessity actually is.
> Folks seem to believe maven helps users make decisions about the  
> individual
> components they want.  It does no such thing.  It helps users decide  
> to
> use a particular top level package with all of its warts, wrinkles and
> obscure dependencies, and *shields* the user from those details.

That is not true.

We allow the convenience of allowing the specification of compile time  
dependencies, but the information for the corresponding dependency  
graph is present and available in tools like m2eclipse:

That is not obscuring the dependencies in the slightest. The fact is  
_all_ the dependency information is available. Even on the command  
line with the -X option you can see what is there. We also have the  
dependency convergence report which shows everything that's being  
used. Lots of people are interested in everything they use, and that  
information is available to users in many convenient ways. The next  
versions of the visualization will also annotate the origin of a  
specific artifact.

You can take as much or as little. You can override any individual  
dependency, anywhere in the graph.

A lot of people here at Apache are talking a keen interest in Maven.  
If you don't understand how it works ask because there are lots of  
people, most likely inadvertently, completely describing Maven's  
capabilities and behaviors incorrectly.

> Having
> a separate repository would actually run against the end user goals  
> for
> Maven.  If they inspect package dependencies, and see foo-incubating
> rev 0.0.1 or higher in those dependencies, that's all we need to  
> insure.
> It's no different than encountering thirdparty bar rev 0.0.1 beta or  
> higher.
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Jason van Zyl
Founder,  Apache Maven
jason at sonatype dot com

What matters is not ideas, but the people who have them. Good people  
can fix bad ideas, but good ideas can't save bad people.

  -- Paul Graham

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