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From "James Carman" <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>
Subject Re: moving a failed incubation project
Date Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:50:40 GMT
On 1/23/08, Richard S. Hall <heavy@ungoverned.org> wrote:
> James Carman wrote:
> > I guess the big point here is what is the big issue with changing the
> > package name in the code?  When people see a class that's in an
> > org.apache.*package, they assume that it's from the ASF.  Leaving it
> > in an
> > ASF-namespaced package has two problems here:
> >
> > 1.  People will assume that it's ASF code.
> > 2.  The ASF never put its "stamp of approval" on this code, since it never
> > made it out of the incubator.
> >
> > Neither one of these problems is a legal problem based on the license (from
> > what folks have said here).  But, there are certain conventions in the Java
> > community which we follow.  If someone sees that code and they want to learn
> > more about it, they'll probably go to www.apache.org and try to find some
> > information.  Leaving that code in an ASF-namespaced package is kind of like
> > putting words into someone else's mouth.
> >
>
> I didn't say that I was against asking people to change it nicely, but I
> think there is nothing we can do if they don't. Section 4.b states:
>
>     You must cause any modified files to carry prominent notices stating
> that You changed the files; and
>
> So, if they make any changes, they must prominently say so, so they
> wouldn't be putting words into anyone's mouth.
>

If someone downloads the binaries, they don't have the source code, so
they'd have to look at the NOTICE file to know what's going on.  I
doubt many folks actually read those (I typically don't).  To me,
publishing classes in someone else's namespace (that they didn't
author) is like putting words in someone else's mouth.  I would
imagine other folks feel that way also.  The fact that they legally
take care of their obligations with respect to the license wouldn't
change my perception either.  I would still feel uneasy about it.


> > Another interesting point to all of this is the question of whether the
> > package name really is part of "the code".  Is "the code" everything that's
> > in the source file or is "the code" the actual logic inside the file?  The
> > package statement could only be seen as a namespace facility and not
> > necessarily "code."  I'm no lawyer, but one might try to make that
> > distinction.
> >
>
> I don't see how you could argue that it is not part of the code, when it
> impacts the API.
>

The API is the way you talk to the object, or the interface (thus the
I in API).  The interface consists of the name of the class itself and
the names of the methods and fields of the class (whether they be
instance or class level).  You can change the package name of a
library without changing the client logic code.  You'll have to use a
different namespace to address it (change imports or fully-qualified
class names), but the manner in which you use the objects/classes
doesn't change.  I don't know that I necessarily agree with what I'm
saying. I'm just playing devil's advocate.  :)  In any case, I merely
said it was interesting and I don't really know if it's worth wasting
anyone else's time here on it (many things I find interesting aren't
worth others' time).

The main point in this discussion is that not changing the package
names is not illegal, but it's definitely uncool and goes against a
pretty well adhered to convention.  Legally, all we can do is ask them
to change the package names and if they don't, there's nothing we can
do (at least that's what we're hearing from other folks in this
discussion).


> -> richard
>
> > On 1/23/08, Richard S. Hall <heavy@ungoverned.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Niall Pemberton wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Jan 23, 2008 11:26 AM, Simon Kitching <sk@ops.co.at> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Niall Pemberton schrieb:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 23, 2008 7:23 AM, Paul Fremantle <pzfreo@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Niall
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Asking someone politely to rename the package is hardly throwing
our
> >>>>>> weight around.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Well you were talking about "need to change the package name" and
> >>>>> "rigorous protection" rather than some kind of "hey we'd prefer
> >>>>> it...".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If people are so keen on *protecting* apache in this way then rather
> >>>>> than starting with a failed incubator project, then how about this
> >>>>> stuff:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >> https://glassfish.dev.java.net/source/browse/glassfish/appserv-webtier/src/java/org/apache/
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Again, that is a bit different from the original TCIK issue. It
> >>>> *appears* that here they are not doing this in order to *distribute*
a
> >>>> forked copy of tomcat, but instead to support tomcat as an alternative
> >>>> internal servlet-engine implementation within their own j2ee server.
In
> >>>> other words, I would think that:
> >>>> (a) you could not normally download this code except by downloading
the
> >>>> entire glassfish server, and
> >>>> (b) they are not actively developing this code to add new features
> >>>> (forking) but simply adding a few patches to make it integrate better
> >>>> with Glassfish.
> >>>>
> >>>> The alternate implementations of commons-logging have also been
> >>>> mentioned in this thread. This is not the same IMO. Commons-logging
is
> >>>> both an API and an implementation. People should be able to provide
> >>>> alternate implementations of an API, and that is what slf4j are doing
> >>>> for example; they are not providing a "patched" or "forked"
> >>>> commons-logging, but instead a complete alternative implementation,
and
> >>>> are distributing just the minimum amount of code to provide the same
> >>>>
> >> api
> >>
> >>>> to users.
> >>>>
> >>>> So:
> >>>> * distributing a few classes in order to implement an apache API : ok
> >>>> * distributing a copy of apache code for the convenience of users of
a
> >>>> larger package, perhaps with a few minor tweaks for better integration:
> >>>>
> >> ok
> >>
> >>>> * publishing code to the world which bears no resemblance to code
> >>>> approved by the ASF: not ok
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> My advice to anyone - read the license yourself, take advice if you
> >>> feel you need it and ignore all the stuff being spouted here:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html#redistribution
> >>>
> >>>
> >> That would be my feeling too. The license pretty much allows people to
> >> do whatever they want with the code and the package name is part of the
> >> code.
> >>
> >> -> richard
> >>
> >>
> >>> Niall
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> All this just just my opinion of course..
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Simon
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
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