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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:04:15 -0700
From: Craig L Russell <Craig.Russell@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: Incubator new committer redux
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Hi,

On Jul 2, 2007, at 2:10 AM, J Aaron Farr wrote:

>
> Craig L Russell <Craig.Russell@Sun.COM> writes:
>
>> The thread has died down with no consensus, so I'm going to try =20
>> again.
>
> I apologize for being absent from these threads for the last month.
> Life got busy and one of the things that got dropped was the incubator
> general list.
>
> I don't want to rehash everything that's been discussed before, but
> here's my opinions as an IPMC member:
>
> I'd prefer that the decision making stays close to the PPMC.  If we
> need the IPMC to check off on PPMC decisions, fine.  That should be
> possible via the mentors.  But let's not make this any more
> bureaucratic than necessary.

I agree that the Incubator should groom the PPMC toward self-=20
governance. But that doesn't mean that the Incubator PMC can avoid =20
its responsibilities.

> Thus I'm in favor of only ONE vote.

That's why I proposed that a vote occur simultaneously on both =20
private lists.
>
> Furthermore, I'm not completely convinced by Noel's argument that the
> PPMC is a figment of our imagination.  Sorry, Noel, don't mean to pick
> on you here. :-)

I can't claim to have read every document that pertains to this =20
issue, but as far as the Board is concerned, PPMC's don't exist. They =20=

are a construction of the Incubator in accordance with the =20
Incubator's charter to provide guidance to subprojects.

According to Apache Foundation how-it-works [1] which I'm assuming is =20=

normative, PMC members have the right to propose new committers. And =20
the PMC as a whole is responsible for project governance, which =20
includes new committers.

>
> My point is, if the IPMC choses to delegate committer voting
> responsibilities to PPMCs, then the PPMC votes are just as 'binding'
> as IPMC votes. AFAIK, there's no legal barrier for this to happen,
> only procedural ones.

The discussion here is on the process (procedure) to create new =20
committers in the incubator while staying within the Incubator's =20
charter within the Foundation's bylaws. Which means to me that the =20
Incubator PMC must decide (vote) on new committers. I'm not convinced =20=

yet that the Incubator PMC can decide to let another group (PPMC) =20
decide without voting to accept the other group's decision. I guess =20
that's a bit of a legal question.

If we can pop the stack a few frames, the reason I'm pursuing this is =20=

that I've seen several examples over the past few months where PPMC =20
votes were taken without the Mentors voting, the PPMC tried to get =20
the new committer on board, root ignored the request, and a general =20
melee occurred. Also from personal experience, a new project has no =20
idea how to get a new committer on board. There seem to be as many =20
opinions (conflicting) as Incubator PMC members.

I'm trying to avoid these kinds of issues in future.

Craig

[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#asf-members
>
> --=20
>   J Aaron Farr     jadetower.com        [US] +1 724-964-4515
>     =E9=A6=AE=E5=82=91=E4=BB=81          cubiclemuses.com     [HK] =
+852 8123-7905
>
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>

Craig Russell
DB PMC, OpenJPA PMC
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo


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