From general-return-14421-apmail-incubator-general-archive=incubator.apache.org@incubator.apache.org Sat May 05 14:49:19 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 25109 invoked from network); 5 May 2007 14:49:12 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (140.211.11.2) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 5 May 2007 14:49:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 66858 invoked by uid 500); 5 May 2007 14:49:16 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 66711 invoked by uid 500); 5 May 2007 14:49:15 -0000 Mailing-List: contact general-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list general@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 66700 invoked by uid 99); 5 May 2007 14:49:15 -0000 Received: from herse.apache.org (HELO herse.apache.org) (140.211.11.133) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sat, 05 May 2007 07:49:15 -0700 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: neutral (herse.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [89.251.0.85] (HELO zimbra-1.theveniceproject.com) (89.251.0.85) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Sat, 05 May 2007 07:49:07 -0700 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra-1.theveniceproject.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902EC2A6C590 for ; Sat, 5 May 2007 16:48:43 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at X-Spam-Score: -1.069 X-Spam-Level: Received: from zimbra-1.theveniceproject.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra-1.theveniceproject.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MExGgC-r0KlJ for ; Sat, 5 May 2007 16:48:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.4.68] (ip56577452.direct-adsl.nl [86.87.116.82]) by zimbra-1.theveniceproject.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049502A6C06D for ; Sat, 5 May 2007 16:48:42 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) In-Reply-To: <918312fe0705030856m6eb091byd18ab88b2d7d1d77@mail.gmail.com> References: <918312fe0705030856m6eb091byd18ab88b2d7d1d77@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <22E7080B-C0F0-4DFF-8657-04B6A6148337@leosimons.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Leo Simons Subject: Re: [discuss] graduation: what is the 'hand over'? Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 16:47:55 +0200 To: general@incubator.apache.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org X-Old-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.069 tagged_above=-10 required=6.6 tests=[AWL=-0.416, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_NJABL_DUL=1.946] On May 3, 2007, at 5:56 PM, Martijn Dashorst wrote: > I am in the process of going through the graduation guide > (graduation.xml in the guides directory of the incubator website), wow, that's pretty detailed. It's also not linked from the main menu. > and I came across a TODO: section and didn't know what to do with > it (no > pun intended). > > What is the post-graduation 'Hand Over'? No idea. Heh. I think we don't really have one. The board@ tries to notify us almost immediately after they vote on any resolution; usually via an e-mail to board@ as well as the relevant private@ PMC list if that applies. I guess the Chairman is always supposed to do that, but he's a busy man, so others help out. Sometimes they all forget, and the way to work around that is to nag your favorite board member into sending an email after you don't hear anything (say, 72 hours) after the board meeting (I recommend people pick Henri for nagging, since he's often most responsive for these kinds of questions) so they remember. After such a board resolution, apache will have a new PMC with an associated new chair/VP, who can then act on their own behalf (like requesting infra resources). We assume (given that they're all graduated and stuff), they'll know what to do next. In practice it's not that great of an assumption. So a pattern that has worked pretty well in the past is that the most active/ experienced/gullible mentor becomes the PMC chair initially, and then optionally that person can help "groom" someone else from within the community to take over after a few months. > To me the process for a TLP is in a simplified form: - make sure status files and the like are up-to-date and completed > - create graduation proposal > - vote on the proposal by the ppmc > - vote on the proposal by the ipmc > - vote on the proposal by the board > > instant karma Heh. The new PMC has the power to ask for karma, at least, but response times from infrastructure may vary :-). Follow procedures http://www.apache.org/dev/ for interacting with infrastructure@. > - move podling resources to TLP resources There's a checklist at http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Post- Graduation+Check+List That checklist is missing at least * new chair subscribes to board@ mailing list * new chair subscribes to infrastructure@ mailing list * new chair gets self added to pmc chairs group in svnauth * entire PMC reviews (add salt since process docs are permanently out-of-date) ** http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html ** http://www.apache.org/dev/#pmc * chair reviews (add salt since process docs are permanently out-of-date) ** http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/RoleOfChair ** http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#chair ** http://incubator.apache.org/guides/chair.html (no idea why the tidbits on that page live over there, most of it should be at www.a.o/dev/) ** http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html (to figure out how to write reports for the board@) * for the first 3 months after graduation, chair submits a report to the board every month. After that, slot into the quarterly reporting schedule. Work with board@. * stick around the incubator and help future projects have an easier time than you did > The graduation guide says that there are two things following the move > of the resources: > * "The Hand Over" I guess I sort-of gave an answer, above. > * solving "Remaining Obstacles" No idea what those would be. "It depends". > Perhaps the IPMC can shed a light on this question? In general, the amount of documentation for "how to be a PMC" is a lot less than we have for "how to incubate". PMCs are supposed to be "self-managing", which means each PMC figures out what their obstacles are all by themselves. Usually by the time a project graduates it knows what to expect in terms of handholding (i.e.: not much) or extensive and correct policy documentation (i.e.: not much). So obstacles can include things such as "we need a unix group on people.a.o to own our releases" or "we need a solaris zone on the zone server to host a demo version of our software" or "I need to figure out how to make Marvin (a mailbot) send me those you-need-to-send-your-board-report reminders". cheers, - Leo the process weenie --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org