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From Craig L Russell <Craig.Russ...@Sun.COM>
Subject Re: PPMC guidance on new committers
Date Wed, 30 May 2007 18:32:37 GMT
Hi Jean,

On May 30, 2007, at 8:11 AM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:

> Craig L Russell wrote:
>> Hi Carl,
>>
>> On May 30, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Carl Trieloff wrote:
>>
>>> One more question on this topic as I have also seen differing views
>>> from different members of the Incubator PMC on:  "Who can and  
>>> who  can
>>> not send the account setup mail to root?"
>>>
>>> Given each new committer vote will have 3 PMC votes, why does a
>>> mentor have to send the account setup to root? Why can't the  
>>> mail  to
>>> root just contain a link to the vote result with 3 PMC members   
>>> on it
>>> from the general list?
>>
>> This is a question that I believe only infrastructure can answer. The
>> issue is that right now, "root" has to respond only to emails  
>> from  PMC
>> chairs, and it's easy to verify that it's really the PMC chair   
>> sending
>> the request.
>
> In the general PMC case, "root" responds to requests from PMC members:
> "The project PMC needs to send an email to root at apache.org  
> requesting
> a new account to be created" [1]. It says "project PMC" not  
> "project PMC
> chair".

Thanks for the correction. I need to remind myself to read the entire  
documentation every time, and not rely on memory. ;-)
>
> But I think the issue is that PPMCs aren't real PMCs,

Right.

> so for the
> Incubator the request should come from a mentor.

I'd prefer to say that the request must come from an incubator pmc  
member. But then the ppmc member who is managing the new committer  
process should ask an incubator pmc member to make the root request,  
and that incubator pmc member would naturally but not necessarily be  
one of the podling's mentors.

Craig
>
>  -jean
>
> [1] http://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html#newcommitter
>
>>>
>>> Some PMC members have the view that any PPMC member should be  
>>> able  to
>>> send the account setup to root to learn the system, others say   
>>> it has
>>> to be a mentor. Cliff has kindly taken care of most of these   
>>> mail for
>>> us so far so this is more theoretical, however having  clarity on  
>>> this
>>> in the document would also be good as I have  wondered about the
>>> reasoning behind this practice. If the mail to  root has to be cc-ed
>>> to general list and PPMC  and has 3 PMC votes  on it then it would
>>> seem to me that it could be send by anyone.
>>
>>
>> If anyone can send the request, then "root" has to do more work by
>> verifying the vote thread, following the link provided in the   
>> message,
>> to make sure that the request is valid.
>>
>> I agree that it's better for the PPMC members themselves to be  
>> able  to
>> make the request to root, but I'd have to leave it up to   
>> infrastructure
>> to decide if they can handle it.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>>
>>> Carl.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig L Russell wrote:
>>>
>>>> Having seen this identical discussion at least half a dozen times,
>>>> I've committed changes to the guides/ppmc document removing the
>>>> distracting (P) from the discussion on new committers.
>>>>
>>>> The new text says
>>>>
>>>> Only votes cast by Incubator PMC members are binding. If the  
>>>> vote  is
>>>> positive, and the contributor accepts the responsibility of a
>>>> committer for the project, the contributor formally becomes an
>>>> Apache committer. An Incubator PMC member should then follow the
>>>> documented procedures to complete the process, and CC both the
>>>> Incubator PMC and the PPMC when sending the necessary e-mails  
>>>> to  root.
>>>>
>>>> I included the redundant "Incubator" in "Incubator PMC" simply to
>>>> reinforce Noel's comment that PMC means Incubator PMC.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> On May 29, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yoav Shapira wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I voted +0, not having had time to review the proposed  
>>>>>> committer's
>>>>>> contributions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 != +0
>>>>>
>>>>>> I always thought (and the documentation at
>>>>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html) says PPMC votes are
>>>>>> binding.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It says (P), and the (P) clearly does not belong.  Notice that
>>>>> elsewhere it
>>>>> properly says PPMC, with no (), and the places that are wrong   
>>>>> were
>>>>> PMC to
>>>>> which someone added (P).  Likewise "IPMC" should simply be PMC.
>>>>> There is
>>>>> only one PMC: the Incubator PMC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know how to say this more clearly.  The PPMC is not a
>>>>> recognized
>>>>> entity in the ASF Bylaws.  The PMC is the legal entity, and only
>>>>> PMC votes
>>>>> count in any ASF project.  PPMC members should still vote, as can
>>>>> other
>>>>> members of the community, but as a legal matter, only PMC  
>>>>> votes  are
>>>>> binding.
>>>>> This is not Incubator policy, it is how the ASF works.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is the same in Jakarta, for example, where any Jakarta   
>>>>> Committer
>>>>> who
>>>>> isn't on the PMC can vote, but only Jakarta PMC votes count.  For
>>>>> years
>>>>> people didn't understand this, but please understand that Jakarta
>>>>> is the
>>>>> source of many of the wrong and bad practices in ASF projects   
>>>>> that
>>>>> didn't go
>>>>> through either the HTTP Server project or the Incubator.
>>>>>
>>>>>> the documentation link above is out of date.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It was never "in date".  It is wrong, regardless of date.
>>>>>
>>>>>     --- Noel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>> -- -
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig Russell
>>>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/ 
>>>> products/ jdo
>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>>>
>>
>> Craig Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/ 
>> jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>
>
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>

Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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