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From Craig L Russell <Craig.Russ...@Sun.COM>
Subject Re: PPMC guidance on new committers
Date Wed, 30 May 2007 12:56:30 GMT
I'd like to open the discussion on the "best practice" referred to by  
the guides/ppmc because I'm not convinced that best practice for a  
TLP is best practice for the incubator.

The reason is that PPMC votes have no legal status. And incubator PMC  
members generally don't track podlings closely. So it's difficult to  
get incubator PMC members to vote for new committers.

But incubator PMC members should be very good at looking at PPMC  
processes and voting based on the PPMC vote process.

Personally, if I saw a vote on the incubator private PMC list for a  
new committer on a podling, including references to the PPMC  
discussion and vote, I would be inclined to vote for that committer.  
On the other hand, if I saw a vote on the incubator private PMC list  
that just offered the usual so-and-so is a great contributor, I'd  
have no real way to see if the PPMC was really learning its job.

So IMHO, best practice for podlings is to hold a [DISCUSS] Joe Bleau  
for committer on the PPMC private list, followed by a [VOTE] on the  
PPMC private list, and then a formal [VOTE] on the private incubator  
PMC list with references to the discussion and vote of the PPMC.  
[Only the final vote is binding.]

Alternatively, hold a [DISCUSS] Joe Bleau for committer on the PPMC  
private list, followed by a [VOTE] on the dev list, and then a formal  
[VOTE] on the incubator list with references to the discussion and  
vote of the community.

This way, the incubator PMC can see that the PPMC "gets" the Apache Way.

Craig

On May 30, 2007, at 5:35 AM, Craig L Russell wrote:

> Having seen this identical discussion at least half a dozen times,  
> I've committed changes to the guides/ppmc document removing the  
> distracting (P) from the discussion on new committers.
>
> The new text says
>
> Only votes cast by Incubator PMC members are binding. If the vote  
> is positive, and the contributor accepts the responsibility of a  
> committer for the project, the contributor formally becomes an  
> Apache committer. An Incubator PMC member should then follow the  
> documented procedures to complete the process, and CC both the  
> Incubator PMC and the PPMC when sending the necessary e-mails to root.
>
> I included the redundant "Incubator" in "Incubator PMC" simply to  
> reinforce Noel's comment that PMC means Incubator PMC.
>
> Craig
>
> On May 29, 2007, at 8:49 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> Yoav Shapira wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I voted +0, not having had time to review the proposed committer's
>>> contributions.
>>
>> +1 != +0
>>
>>> I always thought (and the documentation at
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html) says PPMC votes are
>>> binding.
>>
>> It says (P), and the (P) clearly does not belong.  Notice that  
>> elsewhere it
>> properly says PPMC, with no (), and the places that are wrong were  
>> PMC to
>> which someone added (P).  Likewise "IPMC" should simply be PMC.   
>> There is
>> only one PMC: the Incubator PMC.
>>
>> I don't know how to say this more clearly.  The PPMC is not a  
>> recognized
>> entity in the ASF Bylaws.  The PMC is the legal entity, and only  
>> PMC votes
>> count in any ASF project.  PPMC members should still vote, as can  
>> other
>> members of the community, but as a legal matter, only PMC votes  
>> are binding.
>> This is not Incubator policy, it is how the ASF works.
>>
>> It is the same in Jakarta, for example, where any Jakarta  
>> Committer who
>> isn't on the PMC can vote, but only Jakarta PMC votes count.  For  
>> years
>> people didn't understand this, but please understand that Jakarta  
>> is the
>> source of many of the wrong and bad practices in ASF projects that  
>> didn't go
>> through either the HTTP Server project or the Incubator.
>>
>>> the documentation link above is out of date.
>>
>> It was never "in date".  It is wrong, regardless of date.
>>
>> 	--- Noel
>>
>>
>>
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>
> Craig Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>

Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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