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From Craig L Russell <Craig.Russ...@Sun.COM>
Subject Re: [VOTE] Change "Mentor" to "Mentors" in Incubator Policy
Date Mon, 21 May 2007 15:46:15 GMT
Hi Bill,

On May 20, 2007, at 11:26 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:

> Craig L Russell wrote:
>> Please review the changes in
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INCUBATOR-60 and vote to accept
>
> Just an FYI - I haven't followed the jira flow terribly well,  
> mostly because
> it takes an order of magnitude longer in time to parse a Jira  
> incident rather
> than approve a patch posted to the list.  If you could at least  
> attach the
> patch delta (and let folks review the full html via the Incubator  
> incident)
> I'd have cycles to be much more involved.  Anywhos...

I have deliberately avoided posting the patch itself in email  
messages, but I'm happy to do so if it helps. The patch for this  
issue is posted below.
>
> Of process_description --- In general (and this doesn't owe  
> entirely to your
> patch - the language was already present) --- the first section of  
> the patched
> document strikes me as casting an overly negative view of the  
> Incubator PMC.

I didn't change that part. But it does seem to echo some of your  
comments about the hammer.

<wrowe April 12, 2007>
given some of the problems that have been percolating all the way to
general@, there are some problems in mentorships.  The hammer is only
applicable to things that are not acceptable ever - backroom (offlist)
decision making, refusing to acknowledge merit (keeping a podling  
'closed')
or not complying with the ASL.  There is a short list of unacceptable
practices at the ASF - the mentors job is to short circuit those early
before they become habit (or - more difficult - rewire them for projects
with a long prior-history before entry to the incubator.)

When these problems escalate to iPMC there is a problem in the  
mentoring,
either mentors not raising the hammer, or podlings refusing to listen to
the advise.  Lowering the hammer sometimes has to come from the iPMC,  
but
it should already be hanging over their heads, having very clearly
explained what's wrong with the status quo and why at the podling level.

This makes it possible for the iPMC to act, instead of discussing the
possibility of entertaining the thought of taking a potential action.
</wrowe>

Would hammer be a better word to use than stick?
>
> It isn't "us v.s. them" - the entire Incubator PMC exists to help,  
> not hinder
> the projects.  Sure we have to take adverse action, but only from  
> projects
> which aren't following ASF process, or simply 'don't work out'.   
> And in that
> case, it's not the mentors, the champion or the IPMC that is at  
> issue, it's
> the project itself.

I agree, but I didn't change that part of the text. I think  
clarifying this would be a good 'nother patch.
>
> I'm also very confused here - "The Mentors are members
> of the Incubator PMC, and report to both the PMC and the Sponsor
> about your overall health and suitability for eventual inclusion
> within the Apache Community"
>
> AIUI the Mentor answers to the Incubator PMC, and furthers the  
> PROJECT,
> not the Sponsor.

There are several references to the Mentor's responsibilities to the  
Sponsor. The Sponsor proposes the Mentors in the original proposal,  
and the IPMC approves the Mentors. The Sponsor continues to have an  
interest in the podling.
>
> I think that is the gist of my objections to Martijin's comment...
>
>   Mentors represent the Sponsor to actively monitor the podling,  
> guide the
>   podling in the Apache Way, and report its status to the Sponsor  
> and the
>   Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of the Incubator PMC.  
> A Mentor has
>   responsibilities toward the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the  
> community of
>   the assigned Podling.
>
> That's wrong IMHO.  To say the 'Sponsor' is a special class once  
> the project
> is incubating is to create two classes, a "Sponsor" and a  
> "Contributor" (e.g.
> committer, PPMC member, what have you).  I don't believe we want  
> the extra
> layer of privilege/esteem/direction/control/what have you.

In some cases, the Sponsor is the destination for the podling, so I  
do think that the Sponsor is special. If the intent is that the  
Sponsor has no role once the podling is accepted, then several other  
parts of the document need to change.
>
> As a mentor, I'm representing the IPMC.   I'm equally mentoring and  
> helping
> out EACH committer (and prospective committer) on a podling who  
> want to learn
> and understand how to operate their project in the Apache ecosystem.
>
> Once a project is incubating, I don't think the Sponsor designation  
> makes
> sense anymore if we are creating a meritocracy of *equals*.

Maybe this should be spun off to a separate discussion...

Craig

INCUBATOR-60.patch:
Index: site-author/incubation/Process_Description.xml
===================================================================
--- site-author/incubation/Process_Description.xml      (revision  
539933)
+++ site-author/incubation/Process_Description.xml      (working copy)
@@ -147,35 +147,35 @@
accepted by the Incubator as a
            <strong>Podling
-</strong>. The Sponsor will assign a
+</strong>. The Sponsor will assign
-          <strong>Mentor
-</strong>. The Mentor may, or may not, be your original Champion. If  
not, it
+          <strong>Mentors</strong>.
+The Mentors may include your original Champion. If not, it
is expected your Champion will remain involved during the rest of the
Incubation process, providing as much assistance as possible.
          </p>
-        <p>The Mentor is there to protect you, but be warned - the  
Mentor is
-also holding a big stick. The Mentor is automatically made a member
-of the Incubator PMC, and reports to both the PMC and the Sponsor
+        <p>The Mentors are there to protect you, but be warned -  
Mentors
+are holding a big stick. The Mentors are members
+of the Incubator PMC, and report to both the PMC and the Sponsor
about your overall health and suitability for eventual inclusion
within the Apache Community (or recommendation to terminate).
-However, the Mentor (with the assistance of the Champion) is also
+However, the Mentors (with the assistance of the Champion) are also
looking after you through the incubation.
</p>
-        <p>One of the roles of the Mentor is to keep away the wolves  
- and in
+        <p>One of the roles of the Mentors is to keep away the  
wolves - and in
the case of incubation the wolf is the Incubator PMC, the policies,
-the process, and inevitable bureaucracy and delays. The Mentor can
+the process, and inevitable bureaucracy and delays. The Mentors can
help you by guiding and protecting you from much of this based on
-his/her experience in the process and familiarity with the policy and
-procedures of incubation. In performing their role, the Mentor is
+their experience in the process and familiarity with the policy and
+procedures of incubation. In performing their role, the Mentors are
representing the Sponsor.
</p>
-        <p>Your Sponsor, represented by your Mentor, has specific
+        <p>Your Sponsor, represented by your Mentors, has specific
responsibilities towards you and the Incubator PMC. There are a bunch
-of administrative and technical actions to take care of. Your Mentor
-is responsible for ensuring that these things happen quickly and
-efficiently. Also, your Mentor is going to help you out with the
+of administrative and technical actions to take care of. Your Mentors
+are responsible for ensuring that these things happen quickly and
+efficiently. Also, your Mentors are going to help you out with the
getting in place of the policies and procedures you use for
introducing new comitters, decision making, etc. These aspects will
be watched closely by the Incubator PMC as they provide a good
Index: site-author/incubation/Incubation_Policy.xml
===================================================================
--- site-author/incubation/Incubation_Policy.xml        (revision  
539933)
+++ site-author/incubation/Incubation_Policy.xml        (working copy)
@@ -863,12 +863,14 @@
        <section id="Mentor">
          <title>Mentor
</title>
-        <p>A Mentor is a role undertaken by a permanent member of  
the Apache
-Software Foundation and is chosen by the Sponsor to actively lead in
-the discharge of their duties (listed above). Upon acceptance by the
-Incubator PMC, the Mentor automatically becomes a member of the
-Incubator PMC. A Mentor has specific responsibilities towards the
-Incubator PMC, the Sponsor and towards the members of the assigned
+        <p>Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
+podling, guide the podling in
+<a href="http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html">the Apache  
Way</a>,
+and report its status
+to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of  
the
+Incubator PMC. A Mentor has
+<a href="Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor">responsibilities</a>
+toward the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the  
assigned
Podling.
</p>
        </section>
@@ -876,9 +878,9 @@
          <title>Committers
</title>
          <p>The candidate shall declare an initial set of  
committers. On
-acceptance of a candidate project, the assigned Mentor shall be given
-access to the Podling's cvs repository for the duration of the
-incubation process. This is to allow the Mentor to perform their
+acceptance of a candidate project, the assigned Mentors shall be given
+access to the Podling's repository for the duration of the
+incubation process. This is to allow the Mentors to perform their
incubation duties, and is for administrative purposes only. To be
given full committer privileges, such as the right to add new code to
the repository, the Mentor must earn them as would any other
Index: site-author/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.xml
===================================================================
--- site-author/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.xml        
(revision 539933)
+++ site-author/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.xml        
(working copy)
@@ -205,9 +205,9 @@
other relevant projects within the TLP.
</p>
          <p>However, while the Sponsor is expected to be actively  
involved, it is
-formally representated by the Mentor. The Mentor is the individual
+formally representated by the Mentors. The Mentors are the individuals
accountable to the Incubator PMC for ensuring the incubation process
-is correctly followed. In cases where the Mentor is not fulfilling
+is correctly followed. In cases where the Mentors are not fulfilling
their responsibilities, the Sponsor (in particular its Chair) will be
expected to remedy the situation.
</p>
@@ -217,7 +217,7 @@
            <ul>
              <li>to provide initial approval for a Canidate to be  
accepted as a Podling
</li>
-            <li>to nominate a Mentor for the incubation process
+            <li>to nominate Mentors for the incubation process
</li>
            </ul>
          </section>
@@ -225,20 +225,21 @@
        <section id="Mentor">
          <title>Mentor
</title>
-        <p>A Mentor is a role undertaken by a permanent member of  
the Apache
-Software Foundation and is chosen by the Sponsor to actively lead in
-the discharge of their duties (listed above). Upon acceptance by the
-Incubator PMC, the Mentor automatically becomes a member of the
-Incubator PMC. A Mentor has specific responsibilities towards the
-Incubator PMC, the Sponsor and towards the members of the assigned
+        <p>Mentors are chosen by the Sponsor to actively monitor the
+podling, guide the podling in
+<a href="http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html">the Apache  
Way</a>,
+and report its status
+to the Sponsor and the Incubator PMC. All Mentors must be members of  
the
+Incubator PMC. A Mentor has the following responsibilities
+toward the Incubator PMC, the Sponsor, and the community of the  
assigned
Podling.
</p>
-        <section id="Responsibilities+towards+Podling+Members">
-          <title>Responsibilities towards Podling Members
+        <section id="Responsibilities+toward+Podling+Community">
+          <title>Responsibilities toward Podling Community
</title>
            <ul>
              <li>to ensure that Incubator PMC decisions and/or issue  
are dealt with in
-a timely manner and ensure that decisions or resolutions effecting
+a timely manner and ensure that decisions or resolutions affecting
the Podling are communicated promptly and expeditiously;
</li>
              <li>to represent the interests of the Podling on the  
Incubator PMC;
@@ -260,8 +261,8 @@
</li>
            </ul>
          </section>
-        <section id="Responsibilities+towards+the+Incubator+PMC">
-          <title>Responsibilities towards the Incubator PMC
+        <section id="Responsibilities+toward+the+Incubator+PMC">
+          <title>Responsibilities toward the Incubator PMC
</title>
            <ul>
              <li>monitoring the Podling through the incubation process;
@@ -281,17 +282,26 @@
</li>
            </ul>
          </section>
+        <section id="Responsibilities+toward+the+Sponsor">
+          <title>Responsibilities toward the Sponsor</title>
+          <ul>
+            <li>provide status to the Sponsor as to the progress
+of the podling
+</li>
+          </ul>
+        </section>
+    </section>
          <section id="Committers">
            <title>Committers
</title>
            <p>The candidate shall declare an initial set of  
committers. On
-acceptance of a candidate project, the assigned Mentor shall be given
-access to the Podling's cvs repository for the duration of the
-incubation process. This is to allow the Mentor to perform their
+acceptance of a candidate project, the assigned Mentors shall be given
+access to the Podling's repository for the duration of the
+incubation process. This is to allow the Mentors to perform their
incubation duties, and is for administrative purposes only. To be
given full committer privileges, such as the right to add new code to
-the repository, the Mentor must earn them as would any other
-potential new committer. In some cases, the Mentor may be part of the
+the repository, the Mentors must earn them as would any other
+potential new committer. In some cases, the Mentors may be part of the
initial set of declared committers, but this is not a requirement of
the Incubation process.
</p>
@@ -303,7 +313,7 @@
            <p>However, you need to make sure of a number of things:
</p>
            <ul>
-            <li>keep your Mentor informed - he/she is reporting to  
the PMC and
+            <li>keep your Mentors informed - they are reporting to  
the PMC and
generally speaking "no news is bad news". Of course, conducting
business on the project's mailing lists is one important way to do
this.
@@ -330,7 +340,6 @@
the policy and procedures you aim to put in place once accepted.
</p>
          </section>
-      </section>
      </section>
    </body>
</document>

>
> Just my 2c - which has nothing to do with the gist of -your- patch :)
>
> Bill
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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