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From "Davanum Srinivas" <dava...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Killing the incubator m2 repository
Date Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:17:00 GMT
Dan,

Am talking about the question i asked here [1] as a follow up to your
observations here [2]. Not yet talking about a proposed plan.

[1] http://marc.info/?l=incubator-general&m=117397920113368&w=2
[2] http://marc.info/?l=incubator-general&m=117397443306478&w=2

-- dims

On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <daniel.kulp@iona.com> wrote:
>
> As Gwyn said,  if we go the <scope>provided</scope> route, this issue
> would come up.   Since we haven't done that yet, there isn't an
> instance.   If we go that route, all the Axis/Geronimo/etc... developers
> and users would be impacted, but no-one on projects outside of Apache
> would be impacted at all as they could just ignore the "provided"
> recommendation.   That would result in "positive" experiences for
> outside projects, negative for Apache projects.   Not good IMO.
>
>
> Dan
>
>
> On Friday 16 March 2007 10:45, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Daniel,
> >
> > Before we take on the branding question. Can you please whip up some
> > actual instances of where the ["less pleasant" for users of apache
> > project] happened/reported? Let's get some clarity here on what is
> > being done here...is it an effort to gain legitimacy w/o exiting
> > incubation or really caring about end users or something else
> > entirely.
> >
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <daniel.kulp@iona.com> wrote:
> > > On Friday 16 March 2007 10:06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > > > Incubator PMC will set guidelines for incubator projects and will
> > > > set best practices (not obligatory) to other ASF projects.
> > > > Everyone else can do what they want.
> > >
> > > Right, but that again defeats the whole point of having the
> > > incubator repository.   If other projects can easily bypass the
> > > requirement that people "opt in" to incubator artifacts, then the
> > > users of those projects still wouldn't know they are using incubator
> > > artifacts unless they look at the dependencies report.   For them,
> > > it would make no difference whether the artifacts came from central
> > > or p.a.o.  (other than the build is slower coming from p.a.o)
> > >
> > > You basically make it "less pleasant" for users of apache projects,
> > > but have no affect on others.   Is that good for the Apache brand?
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > > thanks,
> > > > dims
> > > >
> > > > On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <daniel.kulp@iona.com> wrote:
> > > > > So basically, the Incubator PMC now wants to start defining
> > > > > policies to control the actions of other top level Apache
> > > > > projects on how dependencies are made?
> > > > >
> > > > > What about projects at codehaus.org?   How about sourceforge?
> > > > > Google? ObjectWeb?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll take Woden as an example.   As pretty much the only pure
> > > > > java WSDL 2.0 implementation, there's probably a bunch of
> > > > > projects OUTSIDE of apache that will require it.   Are you going
> > > > > to go and tell them all they have to use
> > > > > <scope>provided</scope>?   Isn't that some sort of restriction
> > > > > that the ASL is supposed to prevent? What's to stop them from
> > > > > ignoring you?   Absolutely nothing. Anyone that takes a
> > > > > dependency on those projects could/would get an incubator
> > > > > artifact without explicitly asking for/authorizing it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > >
> > > > > On Friday 16 March 2007 09:42, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > > > > > Noel,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please see below:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 3/16/07, Noel J. Bergman <noel@devtech.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > > > > > > > Yes, If the apache projects like say Axis2 and Geronimo
> > > > > > > > set up their pom's in a certain fashion (using m2's
> > > > > > > > scope=provided mechanism), end users will have to
add
> > > > > > > > incubator repos explicitly/consciously and won't get
> > > > > > > > podling jars pulled in w/o their knowledge.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What's the burden imposed by this on the user?  Does this
> > > > > > > mean that we could eliminate the Incubator specific
> > > > > > > repository in favor of <scope>provided</scope>?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The burden on the user is that if he really wants to use that
> > > > > > artifact, he/she should add it in their own pom's and add the
> > > > > > repository also in their pom explicitly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And is this an appropriate thing, since if Axis2
> > > > > > > or Geronimo do that, doesn't it mean that the jar is no
> > > > > > > longer packaged with them when they release?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, this means that the dist may have the jars. We are
> > > > > > focusing on stopping users from auto-magically pulling in
> > > > > > incubator artifacts via m2 dependency mechansims w/o their
> > > > > > cooperation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is that an issue?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Depends on who you ask :) Right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the goals are to help protect users from a naive (as
> > > > > > > contrasted with an informed) dependence on projects that
> > > > > > > haven't yet earned their ASF-status, and to ensure that
> > > > > > > Incubator projects aren't just trying to cash in on the
> > > > > > > ASF-brand without adopting our methods, where are the
> > > > > > > appropriate lines of control?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We need to add some guidelines for how projects like Axis2 and
> > > > > > Geronimo use incubator artifacts in addition to the guidelines
> > > > > > in place for the Inucbator artifacts themselves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > If (for the sake of argument) WS decides to ship some
> > > > > > > Incubator JAR as part of some WS release, and is supporting
> > > > > > > the release are they counting on the Incubator JAR, or
on
> > > > > > > you providing certain functionality?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They are counting on WS project. Case in point, woden is used
> > > > > > for WSDL 2.0. If woden dies, Axis2 should come up with an
> > > > > > alternative. For Geronimo, if cxf dies, there's always Axis2.
> > > > > > FWIW, I really like how G balances rather juggles multiple
> > > > > > options Tomcat/Jetty, Different flavors of JPA, Axis2/CXF etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course, that
> > > > > > > ought to weigh into your own decision to include the JAR
in
> > > > > > > the first place. Would this be the same as a company using
> > > > > > > Roller in production to sell a service while Roller was
> > > > > > > still in the Incubator?  A service purchaser is expecting
a
> > > > > > > blog, but perhaps not counting on how that functionality
is
> > > > > > > provided.  Should it depend on whether the JAR's API is
> > > > > > > exposed, or simply some functionality that you can
> > > > > > > maintain/replace?  Again, reflecting back on the goals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, existing projects should exercise caution and plan for
> > > > > > failures.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >         --- Noel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >---- ---- - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional
> > > > > > > commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > J. Daniel Kulp
> > > > > Principal Engineer
> > > > > IONA
> > > > > P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194
> > > > > daniel.kulp@iona.com
> > > > > http://www.dankulp.com/blog
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >---- - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional
> > > > > commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > --
> > > J. Daniel Kulp
> > > Principal Engineer
> > > IONA
> > > P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194
> > > daniel.kulp@iona.com
> > > http://www.dankulp.com/blog
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
> --
> J. Daniel Kulp
> Principal Engineer
> IONA
> P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194
> daniel.kulp@iona.com
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers

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