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From "Davanum Srinivas" <dava...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Killing the incubator m2 repository
Date Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:14:48 GMT
Gwyn,

Please see #1 item here:
http://marc.info/?l=incubator-general&m=117397443306478&w=2

-- dims

On 3/16/07, Gwyn Evans <gwyn.evans@gmail.com> wrote:
> Surely there are no "actual instances" as yet, as this sub-thread's
> about the effect of the suggested "<scope>provided</scope>" if it were
> to be used...
>
> /Gwyn
>
> On 16/03/07, Davanum Srinivas <davanum@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Daniel,
> >
> > Before we take on the branding question. Can you please whip up some
> > actual instances of where the ["less pleasant" for users of apache
> > project] happened/reported? Let's get some clarity here on what is
> > being done here...is it an effort to gain legitimacy w/o exiting
> > incubation or really caring about end users or something else
> > entirely.
> >
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <daniel.kulp@iona.com> wrote:
> > > On Friday 16 March 2007 10:06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > > > Incubator PMC will set guidelines for incubator projects and will set
> > > > best practices (not obligatory) to other ASF projects. Everyone else
> > > > can do what they want.
> > >
> > > Right, but that again defeats the whole point of having the incubator
> > > repository.   If other projects can easily bypass the requirement that
> > > people "opt in" to incubator artifacts, then the users of those projects
> > > still wouldn't know they are using incubator artifacts unless they look
> > > at the dependencies report.   For them, it would make no difference
> > > whether the artifacts came from central or p.a.o.  (other than the build
> > > is slower coming from p.a.o)
> > >
> > > You basically make it "less pleasant" for users of apache projects, but
> > > have no affect on others.   Is that good for the Apache brand?
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > thanks,
> > > > dims
> > > >
> > > > On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <daniel.kulp@iona.com> wrote:
> > > > > So basically, the Incubator PMC now wants to start defining policies
> > > > > to control the actions of other top level Apache projects on how
> > > > > dependencies are made?
> > > > >
> > > > > What about projects at codehaus.org?   How about sourceforge?
> > > > > Google? ObjectWeb?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll take Woden as an example.   As pretty much the only pure java
> > > > > WSDL 2.0 implementation, there's probably a bunch of projects
> > > > > OUTSIDE of apache that will require it.   Are you going to go and
> > > > > tell them all they have to use <scope>provided</scope>?
  Isn't that
> > > > > some sort of restriction that the ASL is supposed to prevent?
> > > > > What's to stop them from ignoring you?   Absolutely nothing.
> > > > > Anyone that takes a dependency on those projects could/would get
an
> > > > > incubator artifact without explicitly asking for/authorizing it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan
> > > > >
> > > > > On Friday 16 March 2007 09:42, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > > > > > Noel,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please see below:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 3/16/07, Noel J. Bergman <noel@devtech.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > > > > > > > Yes, If the apache projects like say Axis2 and Geronimo
set up
> > > > > > > > their pom's in a certain fashion (using m2's scope=provided
> > > > > > > > mechanism), end users will have to add incubator repos
> > > > > > > > explicitly/consciously and won't get podling jars
pulled in
> > > > > > > > w/o their knowledge.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What's the burden imposed by this on the user?  Does this
mean
> > > > > > > that we could eliminate the Incubator specific repository
in
> > > > > > > favor of <scope>provided</scope>?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The burden on the user is that if he really wants to use that
> > > > > > artifact, he/she should add it in their own pom's and add the
> > > > > > repository also in their pom explicitly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > And is this an appropriate thing, since if Axis2
> > > > > > > or Geronimo do that, doesn't it mean that the jar is no
longer
> > > > > > > packaged with them when they release?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, this means that the dist may have the jars. We are focusing
on
> > > > > > stopping users from auto-magically pulling in incubator artifacts
> > > > > > via m2 dependency mechansims w/o their cooperation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is that an issue?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Depends on who you ask :) Right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the goals are to help protect users from a naive (as
> > > > > > > contrasted with an informed) dependence on projects that
haven't
> > > > > > > yet earned their ASF-status, and to ensure that Incubator
> > > > > > > projects aren't just trying to cash in on the ASF-brand
without
> > > > > > > adopting our methods, where are the appropriate lines of
> > > > > > > control?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We need to add some guidelines for how projects like Axis2 and
> > > > > > Geronimo use incubator artifacts in addition to the guidelines
in
> > > > > > place for the Inucbator artifacts themselves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > If (for the sake of argument) WS decides to ship some Incubator
> > > > > > > JAR as part of some WS release, and is supporting the release
> > > > > > > are they counting on the Incubator JAR, or on you providing
> > > > > > > certain functionality?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They are counting on WS project. Case in point, woden is used
for
> > > > > > WSDL 2.0. If woden dies, Axis2 should come up with an alternative.
> > > > > > For Geronimo, if cxf dies, there's always Axis2. FWIW, I really
> > > > > > like how G balances rather juggles multiple options Tomcat/Jetty,
> > > > > > Different flavors of JPA, Axis2/CXF etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course, that
> > > > > > > ought to weigh into your own decision to include the JAR
in the
> > > > > > > first place. Would this be the same as a company using
Roller in
> > > > > > > production to sell a service while Roller was still in
the
> > > > > > > Incubator?  A service purchaser is expecting a blog, but
perhaps
> > > > > > > not counting on how that functionality is provided.  Should
it
> > > > > > > depend on whether the JAR's API is exposed, or simply some
> > > > > > > functionality that you can maintain/replace?  Again, reflecting
> > > > > > > back on the goals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, existing projects should exercise caution and plan for
> > > > > > failures.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >         --- Noel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > >---- - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional
> > > > > > > commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > J. Daniel Kulp
> > > > > Principal Engineer
> > > > > IONA
> > > > > P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194
> > > > > daniel.kulp@iona.com
> > > > > http://www.dankulp.com/blog
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > --
> > > J. Daniel Kulp
> > > Principal Engineer
> > > IONA
> > > P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194
> > > daniel.kulp@iona.com
> > > http://www.dankulp.com/blog
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
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>
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>


-- 
Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers

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