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From "Davanum Srinivas" <dava...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Killing the incubator m2 repository
Date Fri, 16 Mar 2007 14:45:51 GMT
Daniel,

Before we take on the branding question. Can you please whip up some
actual instances of where the ["less pleasant" for users of apache
project] happened/reported? Let's get some clarity here on what is
being done here...is it an effort to gain legitimacy w/o exiting
incubation or really caring about end users or something else
entirely.

thanks,
dims

On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <daniel.kulp@iona.com> wrote:
> On Friday 16 March 2007 10:06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Incubator PMC will set guidelines for incubator projects and will set
> > best practices (not obligatory) to other ASF projects. Everyone else
> > can do what they want.
>
> Right, but that again defeats the whole point of having the incubator
> repository.   If other projects can easily bypass the requirement that
> people "opt in" to incubator artifacts, then the users of those projects
> still wouldn't know they are using incubator artifacts unless they look
> at the dependencies report.   For them, it would make no difference
> whether the artifacts came from central or p.a.o.  (other than the build
> is slower coming from p.a.o)
>
> You basically make it "less pleasant" for users of apache projects, but
> have no affect on others.   Is that good for the Apache brand?
>
> Dan
>
>
> >
> > thanks,
> > dims
> >
> > On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <daniel.kulp@iona.com> wrote:
> > > So basically, the Incubator PMC now wants to start defining policies
> > > to control the actions of other top level Apache projects on how
> > > dependencies are made?
> > >
> > > What about projects at codehaus.org?   How about sourceforge?
> > > Google? ObjectWeb?
> > >
> > > I'll take Woden as an example.   As pretty much the only pure java
> > > WSDL 2.0 implementation, there's probably a bunch of projects
> > > OUTSIDE of apache that will require it.   Are you going to go and
> > > tell them all they have to use <scope>provided</scope>?   Isn't
that
> > > some sort of restriction that the ASL is supposed to prevent?
> > > What's to stop them from ignoring you?   Absolutely nothing.
> > > Anyone that takes a dependency on those projects could/would get an
> > > incubator artifact without explicitly asking for/authorizing it.
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > On Friday 16 March 2007 09:42, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > > > Noel,
> > > >
> > > > Please see below:
> > > >
> > > > On 3/16/07, Noel J. Bergman <noel@devtech.com> wrote:
> > > > > Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > > > > > Yes, If the apache projects like say Axis2 and Geronimo set
up
> > > > > > their pom's in a certain fashion (using m2's scope=provided
> > > > > > mechanism), end users will have to add incubator repos
> > > > > > explicitly/consciously and won't get podling jars pulled in
> > > > > > w/o their knowledge.
> > > > >
> > > > > What's the burden imposed by this on the user?  Does this mean
> > > > > that we could eliminate the Incubator specific repository in
> > > > > favor of <scope>provided</scope>?
> > > >
> > > > The burden on the user is that if he really wants to use that
> > > > artifact, he/she should add it in their own pom's and add the
> > > > repository also in their pom explicitly.
> > > >
> > > > > And is this an appropriate thing, since if Axis2
> > > > > or Geronimo do that, doesn't it mean that the jar is no longer
> > > > > packaged with them when they release?
> > > >
> > > > No, this means that the dist may have the jars. We are focusing on
> > > > stopping users from auto-magically pulling in incubator artifacts
> > > > via m2 dependency mechansims w/o their cooperation.
> > > >
> > > > > Is that an issue?
> > > >
> > > > Depends on who you ask :) Right?
> > > >
> > > > > If the goals are to help protect users from a naive (as
> > > > > contrasted with an informed) dependence on projects that haven't
> > > > > yet earned their ASF-status, and to ensure that Incubator
> > > > > projects aren't just trying to cash in on the ASF-brand without
> > > > > adopting our methods, where are the appropriate lines of
> > > > > control?
> > > >
> > > > We need to add some guidelines for how projects like Axis2 and
> > > > Geronimo use incubator artifacts in addition to the guidelines in
> > > > place for the Inucbator artifacts themselves.
> > > >
> > > > > If (for the sake of argument) WS decides to ship some Incubator
> > > > > JAR as part of some WS release, and is supporting the release
> > > > > are they counting on the Incubator JAR, or on you providing
> > > > > certain functionality?
> > > >
> > > > They are counting on WS project. Case in point, woden is used for
> > > > WSDL 2.0. If woden dies, Axis2 should come up with an alternative.
> > > > For Geronimo, if cxf dies, there's always Axis2. FWIW, I really
> > > > like how G balances rather juggles multiple options Tomcat/Jetty,
> > > > Different flavors of JPA, Axis2/CXF etc.
> > > >
> > > > > Of course, that
> > > > > ought to weigh into your own decision to include the JAR in the
> > > > > first place. Would this be the same as a company using Roller in
> > > > > production to sell a service while Roller was still in the
> > > > > Incubator?  A service purchaser is expecting a blog, but perhaps
> > > > > not counting on how that functionality is provided.  Should it
> > > > > depend on whether the JAR's API is exposed, or simply some
> > > > > functionality that you can maintain/replace?  Again, reflecting
> > > > > back on the goals.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, existing projects should exercise caution and plan for
> > > > failures.
> > > >
> > > > >         --- Noel
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >---- - To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional
> > > > > commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > --
> > > J. Daniel Kulp
> > > Principal Engineer
> > > IONA
> > > P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194
> > > daniel.kulp@iona.com
> > > http://www.dankulp.com/blog
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
> --
> J. Daniel Kulp
> Principal Engineer
> IONA
> P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194
> daniel.kulp@iona.com
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers

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