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Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:33:21 -0400
From: Geir Magnusson Jr <geir@pobox.com>
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To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [discussion] Harmony podling to ask for vote for graduation
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 <200610171030.31551.daniel.kulp@iona.com> <45350ECC.4060104@pobox.com>
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Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Oct 17, 2006, at 10:11 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>> Daniel Kulp wrote:
>>> On Tuesday October 17 2006 12:44 am, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>>> The PPMC of the Apache Harmony incubator podling has voted to ask for
>>>> graduation from the Apache Incubator.  We have enjoyed our time here
>>>> with you, but feel that we don't want to overstay our welcome.  We want
>>>>  to do our part to help make sure the ASF has more projects than the
>>>> Incubator :)
>>>
>>> ---- snip ----
>>>
>>>> We won't have a release of this software until we are finished with
>>>> Java SE 5.  We may have milestone release late this quarter or in Q1 of
>>>> next year, but we wish to avoid hyping the capability of what we have,
>>>> and get our software stabilized and useful for general use.  Users are
>>>> very important to us, but we realize that there's a minimum amount of
>>>> functionality and stability required before it's interesting to the
>>>> casual user, and we're just reaching that point.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't have a binding vote, but my thought is Harmony has the
>>> same "issue" as Felix: namely they haven't done a release or provided
>>> even a "test release" to the IPMC so the IPMC can be sure the podling
>>> knows the proper way to do a release and understands and can correct all
>>> the issues such as proper apache licensing, etc...    Basically, make
>>> sure the podling can get all their "Apache Legal Ducks in a Row."
>>
>> Legal ducks?  this project has a flock :)  And there is no requirement
>> for a release for graduation, is there?   (Ironic, since the early rule
>> in the incubator was that no releases were allowed ;)
> 
> The early rule did not work, specifically for projects that intended
> to graduate as a TLP.  There was insufficient experience left in one
> group post-graduation to properly create an Apache release, so we were
> criticized for having approved their graduation.
> 
> How do we know that a group has learned the Apache way of doing things
> if they have never voted on a release?  The single most important action
> of a TLP should be learned by the committers before they become a TLP.

Are you looking for us to show that we can vote and deal with
contention?  We've had that.

I think we've had 20+ votes on various issues on the dev list, which
mainly were formal records, because we try to always reach consensus.
We've had to vote in lots of donations, and have had disagreements about
contributions that were all peacefully resolved with full consensus in
the end.

> 
>> This is a major project (at 1.3M lines of code and counting) with a
>> clearly defined deliverable (compatible java SE 5), and we're not ready
>> yet to release something.
> 
> But are you ready to produce something that can be voted on?
> Even if it is only a milestone package for developer use only?

I'd prefer not to produce a new kind of artifact just for this purpose,
but if this really is required, we can certainly hold a vote tomorrow
about a new snapshot if that demonstrates something more than our
history has demonstrated.

Will that be sufficient?

> 
> It doesn't need to result in a released product -- it just needs
> to make everyone in the project agree and understand how future
> releases will be made.  Sometimes, shit can lay hidden until an
> important decision needs to be made, such as who will RM and what
> should be included.  It is better to let the shit hit the fan now
> than to assume it will all work out later on.

Ok.  Will you be satisfied with a vote on posting a snapshot?

geir


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