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From "Roy T. Fielding" <field...@gbiv.com>
Subject Re: Checkpoint on Harmony (Re: [discussion] Harmony podling to ask for vote for graduation)
Date Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:05:44 GMT
On Oct 19, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> I agree with the motivations behind asking for a release, but  
> disagree that a release is the only way to satisfy IPMC's need for  
> information about the health and capability of a podling's future  
> life as a TLP.

It isn't -- it is just one of the most obvious ways.

> We've had 4 reports from the 4 mentors of the project, 3 (Stefano,  
> Leo and Dims) that I would argue are "arms-length" mentors who are  
> not as closely "invested" in the project as I am, and are well- 
> known for their directness, honesty and openness.
>
> I'd like to ask that those who have asked for a release to assuage  
> concerns about community health and capability to please read those  
> 3 testaments from the mentors (ok, in Leo's case, 71 or so...) and  
> please consider withdrawing your request for a release.

That's silly -- why would people who think a release (or at least the
release process) is a useful learning process drop such a *request*?
I could understand your concern if it was expressed as a requirement,
but it most certainly wasn't.  Felix was a slightly different concern
because it was obvious that the code base hadn't been prepared for
a release yet.

> If we can reach consensus (with the exception of Mads who doesn't  
> want to see Harmony here, and Roy for other good reasons due to my  
> stupidity), I'd like to then move to the ratification vote.

I don't think you understood my concern.  A random individual shows up
and makes an idiotic statement about the Apache process, and the only
response (aside from my own) was two private emails.  You know how I  
feel
about private emails, particularly unarchived private emails.  What I
wanted to see was someone from the project who IS NOT a mentor actually
demonstrate that they comprehend the process by participating in it on
the public list rather than just following your lead.  The goal of a
self-governing TLP is one that can still govern itself even if the
annointed one gets hit by a bus.  That may be true of Harmony, but I
have yet to see an example that showed it.

While I have a great deal of respect for the mentors and would have
no reservations if they were the project community, they are not the
project community.  I trust that the mentors know what they are doing,
but I also know that it is difficult to keep a perspective when you
are close to the community.  That is why I ask questions.  That is why
Jackrabbit did not graduate until after it made a release, and it was
that release process that finally created a project that was independent
of me because someone else had to step forward and take on the role  
of RM.

In any case, the point here isn't to reach consensus. It would be nice
to have, but creating such a high bar is truly a waste of time when it
comes to graduating a project.  People here need to be able to express
their fears, uncertainties, and doubts about all sorts of issues and  
then
we can all judge whether the benefits outweigh the FUD.  That is what
a vote is for -- votes that merely rubberstamp discussions are a waste
of time.

....Roy


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