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From Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>
Subject Re: [policy] incubating projects and maven repositories v1.0
Date Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:38:11 GMT

On 31 Aug 06, at 12:18 AM 31 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Justin used the word "common decency". No one can twist anyone's arm.
> If either the ibiblio folks or Maven PMC folks don't honor the
> request, well, it's upto them...Here we are setting policy for us the
> incubator participants, incubator mentors and incubator pmc folks. If
> people working on the incubation project break the policy, then that's
> an issue for us.
>

It's not policy until we vote on it. So I guess it's time to vote.

How is this done, no the general list? For 72 hours? A majority wins?

> -- dims
>
> On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
>> On 30 Aug 06, at 11:18 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>
>> > Hmm, we are not setting any limits on anyone else, just  
>> ourselves. We
>> > the incubator folks will not automatically sync *our* repo to the
>> > central repo *automatically*. Everyone else can do what they want
>> > within their rights.
>> >
>>
>> That doesn't really jive with what Justin said in an earlier thread.
>> In that we should tell people not to redistribute incubator artifacts
>> and ask they comply out of courtesy.
>>
>> > -- dims
>> >
>> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 10:16 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Please see this email from Noel:
>> >> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-
>> >> > general&m=115440482328786&w=2
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Why can't both aims be met? That of user protection and user
>> >> convenience?
>> >>
>> >> I cannot see the how marking *each* and *every* incubator artifact
>> >> with a version that clearly says it is from the Apache Incubator
>> >> gives less clarity then adding a repository element.
>> >>
>> >> In a standard dependency report like:
>> >>
>> >> http://jackrabbit.apache.org/dependencies.html
>> >>
>> >> It would be very clear looking at the version that it came from  
>> the
>> >> incubator. And if people download these artifacts with non-Maven
>> >> tools like an Ant Task, Ivy or simply check in versions of these
>> >> artifacts then they will clearly be seen as coming from the
>> >> incubator.  If we are going to make it clear then let's do it  
>> in the
>> >> place where it will be seen by everyone regardless of the tool  
>> they
>> >> use to build.
>> >>
>> >> Also the Maven 2.x IDE integration will soon have the ability  
>> to pull
>> >> indices from repositories in order to provide drop down/searchable
>> >> lists of available artifacts so it will be easy to grab new  
>> artifacts
>> >> to put in your POMs. An IDE could easily provide a set of
>> >> repositories to pull indices from at which point the user is  
>> going to
>> >> merrily start pulling down dependencies. When you select an  
>> artifact
>> >> you always select the version, like in the Eclipse integration, so
>> >> people will see "apache-incubator" over and over. They will see  
>> the
>> >> repository entry once.
>> >>
>> >> If I then had to go to the people doing IDE integration and say
>> >> please don't include the apache incubator repository. So you are
>> >> going to make us:
>> >>
>> >> 1) Deny people the right to distribute software as described in  
>> our
>> >> license
>> >> 2) Make the Maven developers go search out all third party
>> >> integration efforts to prevent them from providing convenient  
>> access
>> >> to certain repositories
>> >>
>> >> I think this is a little heavy handed, unfair and unnecessary.
>> >>
>> >> > -- dims
>> >> >
>> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 7:53 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Jason,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Is it rocket science to add a new repo location in pom.xml?
>> >> *Any*
>> >> >> > maven newbie learns *very* quickly how to add a new repo.
Are
>> >> you
>> >> >> > stating that *IF* the artifacts are not in the central  
>> repo they
>> >> >> won't
>> >> >> > find it and won't know how to use it?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As a force of habit most Maven users, particularly those coming
>> >> from
>> >> >> Maven 1.x, assume all open source artifacts are in the central
>> >> >> repository. And in most cases for Maven 2.x all artifact
>> >> required are
>> >> >> placed in the central repository.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> It would be an unnecessary inconvenience. If the goal is to  
>> raise
>> >> >> awareness that it is from the incubator then it can be done
>> >> with the
>> >> >> version. It could even be
>> >> >>
>> >> >> 1.0-apache-incubator-foo (1)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As I think that would be preferable to users and that is
>> >> abundantly
>> >> >> clear I think.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > The least anyone will need to
>> >> >> > know is the artifact id and version id and they find this
>> >> when they
>> >> >> > browse a project's pages, are you stating that a user will
 
>> never
>> >> >> look
>> >> >> > at anyone's web site or download area and will *ONLY* look
at
>> >> >> ibiblio
>> >> >> > repo and decide to use a project?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The whole point of Maven is to make this easy for users and not
>> >> have
>> >> >> to look at a project's site. Maven users expect what they need
>> >> to be
>> >> >> in the central repository as shown by the many threads when
>> >> users go
>> >> >> to use Sun JARs and we don't have them in the central  
>> repository.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > If they do indeed look, isn't it
>> >> >> > trivial to add instructions on adding info on how to add the
>> >> >> > incubation repo? Where's the problem?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> A lot of times people actually go to the central repository to
>> >> find
>> >> >> the artifact's groupId and artifactId. They don't go to project
>> >> >> websites, they go to the authority which is the central
>> >> repository.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If the goal here is user awareness then I think using an
>> >> version like
>> >> >> (1) supports this end to a great extent while being more
>> >> convenient
>> >> >> for the average Maven user.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > -- dims
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 1:48 PM 30 Aug 06, Justin Erenkrantz
wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Dan Diephouse <dan@envoisolutions.com>
wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> policy, so I see those as in conflict right now.
So I
>> >> want to
>> >> >> >> know on
>> >> >> >> >> what grounds the incubator can prevent me from
requesting
>> >> that
>> >> >> >> some
>> >> >> >> >> incubating jars from being uploaded to ibiblio.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Common decency?  If we (as the project owners) ask
those
>> >> >> >> artifacts not
>> >> >> >> > to be posted, then they shouldn't be posted as a
matter of
>> >> >> >> courtesy.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> It just means that we have to start watching for requests
>> >> >> coming from
>> >> >> >> users to put artifacts in the repository. Effectively
you  
>> are
>> >> >> asking
>> >> >> >> us to deny the terms of redistribution stated in our license
>> >> >> are you
>> >> >> >> not?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> We could watch for requests going into Ibiblio, but we
can't
>> >> >> prevent
>> >> >> >> someone else from putting in a repository that they might
 
>> use.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> What is going to happen is that people are going to want
 
>> to use
>> >> >> these
>> >> >> >> artifacts and they will want to rsync Ibiblio, which many
>> >> >> people do,
>> >> >> >> and then attempt to rsync  the incubator repository. We
are
>> >> just
>> >> >> >> going to try and circumvent a path that we cannot fully
>> >> block off.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I don't see what is not clear with *every* incubator 

>> artifact
>> >> >> being
>> >> >> >> marked with a version that has "incubator" in it. Plus
the
>> >> reports
>> >> >> >> that can be generated give a clear view to users what
 
>> they are
>> >> >> >> consuming.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I read this:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-
>> >> >> >> general&m=115440663222532&w=2
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> and to be frank (4) is somewhat paradoxical to me. You
 
>> want an
>> >> >> >> incubator project to thrive, and grow while we are  
>> tacitly, yet
>> >> >> >> actively, discouraging their use? I think we should let
>> >> people use
>> >> >> >> their common sense to protect themselves.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> What is being envisioned here as the worst case scenario
of
>> >> >> using an
>> >> >> >> incubator artifact for a failed incubator project? The
mail
>> >> says
>> >> >> >> protect the user, but from what?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I'm not going to discourage the use of a project I'm
>> >> mentoring and
>> >> >> >> fully support. I'm going to get everyone on the planet
I  
>> can to
>> >> >> use
>> >> >> >> it as fast and as widely as possible.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > -- justin
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-
>> >> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
>> >> >> help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Jason van Zyl
>> >> >> >> jason@maven.org
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-
>> >> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-
>> >> help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web  
>> Service
>> >> >> > Developers)
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general- 
>> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
>> >> help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jason van Zyl
>> >> >> jason@maven.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general- 
>> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general- 
>> help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
>> >> > Developers)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general- 
>> help@incubator.apache.org
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Jason van Zyl
>> >> jason@maven.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
>> > Developers)
>> >
>> >  
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Jason van Zyl
>> jason@maven.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service  
> Developers)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>

Jason van Zyl
jason@maven.org




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