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From Jason van Zyl <ja...@maven.org>
Subject Re: IRC Channel?
Date Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:27:46 GMT

On 16 Aug 06, at 9:40 AM 16 Aug 06, Dion Gillard wrote:

> You mean like this:
>
> http://docs.codehaus.org/display/MAVEN/IRC+Log+Design+Discussion+26 
> +May+2005
>

That particular discussion had everyone who even vaguely knew what  
the issue at hand was, even so you only know we talked about it  
because we logged it. Also, the use of our IRC has evolved over time  
just as people evolve their communication strategies. Geir's example  
below is exactly what he and I used to do *all* the time except we  
never posted anything to the mailing lists. We designed pretty much  
every last detail of Velocity over IRC and usually it was a private  
IRC conversation. So everyone changes to adjust to what best suits  
the situation.

If you look at the Maven lists and how often we post topics for  
development discussion you'll often find no one outside the core set  
of committers answers any of them. Often times not even the core  
committers answer. Then it fades away and folks generally don't go  
hunting down the topic in the archives, except for the very few that  
have a mail flagging technique. But anyone interested in knowing what  
we're doing is here:

http://docs.codehaus.org/display/MAVEN/Maven+2.1+Design+Documents

Regardless of whatever else we do those are the items of discussion  
and nothing leaves the queue until it is resolved and we don't tackle  
any other new issues until a place in the queue frees sometimes pass  
in and out of the mailing list and sometimes devs/users leave  
comments in the wiki. We then vote on the mailing list, although I  
think a little voting app like we use for elections would be better  
for record keeping, or a little webapp. So what's makes it easier for  
a new person entering the community to get involved? Sifting through  
archives or looking at that one page. The one page I would think. If  
that page points at email threads (which we're working on), IRC logs  
or the Wiki then who cares what the medium is provided it's available  
to everyone. If people want to get involved they generally ask and  
that's about all they need to be involved.

Bottom line is if you don't include other people then they aren't  
going stay around to help and the project will go to pot. Telling  
people they can't use IRC for discussions or even making decisions  
isn't going to prevent a project from spiraling downward. It's the  
attitude of the people involved that will keep a project afloat. I've  
adjusted from doing a lot of things myself like writing Velocity or  
large chunks of Turbine, the first incarnation of maven, the second  
incarnation of maven but it's not IRC discussions that kept others  
from being involved or feeling included it was my attitude. My  
attitude changed and my general mode of communication changed and  
that included how I used IRC. I think it's pointless to hammer on a  
point that some technology is going to make or break a project, or  
even help or aid a project to be more one way or the other. If the  
project is going to be a long term survivor the people involved in  
the project will figure it out.

>
> On 8/16/06, Geir Magnusson Jr <geir@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jan Blok wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > What could be the problem of any real-time communication medium  
>> usage
>> > between some community members as long as every one agrees code and
>> > design decisions are made on the mailing list?
>>
>> Because the reality is that decisions are made on IRC,  
>> implicitly.  It's
>> hard to engage in an argument that already happened, especially  
>> when the
>> discussion was very conversational rather than formal :
>>
>> A: what do you think?
>> B: Well, like you said before...
>> A : about the contstructor
>> B : no, the other thing
>> A : related to using =?
>> B : right that it..  it would be better if that was done as Jim
>> suggested....
>>
>> versus the more formal statements people make in email
>>
>> "I'm beginning to agree that ensuring that re-serializing the  
>> Properties
>> preserves the original delimiter ("=" in Jim's example) that was  
>> used in
>> the original file."
>>
>> geir
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Regards Jan Blok
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think one way of looking at this is simply remembering that
>> >> the ASF values community over code. Yes, IRC and other
>> >> real-time communication methods means "quicker" code
>> >> development, etc, but it places, IMO, an undue barrier
>> >> to the development of the community.
>> >>
>> >>  
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>> >
>> >  
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>> >
>>
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>
>
> -- 
> http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/
> "If you even dream of beating me you'd better wake up and apologize" -
> Muhammad Ali
>
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>

Jason van Zyl
jason@maven.org




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