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From "Roy T. Fielding" <>
Subject Re: IRC Channel?
Date Wed, 16 Aug 2006 06:24:46 GMT
On Aug 15, 2006, at 2:38 AM, Ian Holsman wrote:
> It isn't the individuals who make the decision, but the community  
> as a whole.
> If they feel more comfortable using X to communicate then fine.
> If a individual doesn't like the method the project is  
> communicating with then it
> is up to him to convince the rest of the community/project to change.

No.  All Apache development decisions are done on public email lists.
I don't think the board has ever allowed a project to adopt guidelines
that differed from that fundamental requirement.

> probably.. i tend to exaggerate. but email is a *very* hard medium  
> to communicate
> ideas. take this thread for example. If we were talking on the  
> phone or on IRC it would
> been settled in 20minutes.. but now there are 20 messages over  4  
> days, and people like
> me jumping into the middle of it, using HTML mail and all that.

How can it be "settled" in 20 minutes when less than 1/3 of the group
is on-line?  It is "settled" only in the minds of the clique that you  
aware of at that time, which is precisely why it is not allowed as a
decision-making method at Apache.

Email communication is hard -- it forces most people to think before  
write a lot of mindless drivel, or at least think before they press the
send button on the drivel they wrote.  IRC does not have that barrier,
true, but that shows both in the quantity of drivel and the quality  
of the
decisions made.

I know of a solution that will bridge the gap, but it is still a cloaked
start-up right now -- I'll send more info on that solution when there is
something that we can use.

Note that the fact that we use email to make project-level decisions
doesn't mean we *do* everything by sending email messages and then
waiting for responses.  The vast amount of real work is simply done
first and communicated later, prototyped/tested and then proposed as
a complete concept, or discussed vaguely at some point in the past and
then implemented by someone else off-line.  I've seen a lot of
discussions where people lead off with an open-ended question and
then wait for a response, but that is usually for long-term issues or
bike-shed topics that can't be "settled" quickly anyway.

> agreed... without experimentation we won't know if IRC or VOIP is  
> better,
> and produces a better quality/amount.

Hmm, IIRC, we already experimented on that issue and discovered the  
I think it was before your time, but APR was mostly "designed" on IRC
and various in-person meetings.  I only have one thing to say about  


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