incubator-general mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From "Davanum Srinivas" <dava...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [policy] incubating projects and maven repositories v1.0
Date Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:48:19 GMT
Yes, general list and majority of binding votes AFAIK.  please start
another thread with a set of well defined choices to vote on.

thanks,
dims

On 8/31/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
>
> On 31 Aug 06, at 12:18 AM 31 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
> > Jason,
> >
> > Justin used the word "common decency". No one can twist anyone's arm.
> > If either the ibiblio folks or Maven PMC folks don't honor the
> > request, well, it's upto them...Here we are setting policy for us the
> > incubator participants, incubator mentors and incubator pmc folks. If
> > people working on the incubation project break the policy, then that's
> > an issue for us.
> >
>
> It's not policy until we vote on it. So I guess it's time to vote.
>
> How is this done, no the general list? For 72 hours? A majority wins?
>
> > -- dims
> >
> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 11:18 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hmm, we are not setting any limits on anyone else, just
> >> ourselves. We
> >> > the incubator folks will not automatically sync *our* repo to the
> >> > central repo *automatically*. Everyone else can do what they want
> >> > within their rights.
> >> >
> >>
> >> That doesn't really jive with what Justin said in an earlier thread.
> >> In that we should tell people not to redistribute incubator artifacts
> >> and ask they comply out of courtesy.
> >>
> >> > -- dims
> >> >
> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 10:16 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Please see this email from Noel:
> >> >> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-
> >> >> > general&m=115440482328786&w=2
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Why can't both aims be met? That of user protection and user
> >> >> convenience?
> >> >>
> >> >> I cannot see the how marking *each* and *every* incubator artifact
> >> >> with a version that clearly says it is from the Apache Incubator
> >> >> gives less clarity then adding a repository element.
> >> >>
> >> >> In a standard dependency report like:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://jackrabbit.apache.org/dependencies.html
> >> >>
> >> >> It would be very clear looking at the version that it came from
> >> the
> >> >> incubator. And if people download these artifacts with non-Maven
> >> >> tools like an Ant Task, Ivy or simply check in versions of these
> >> >> artifacts then they will clearly be seen as coming from the
> >> >> incubator.  If we are going to make it clear then let's do it
> >> in the
> >> >> place where it will be seen by everyone regardless of the tool
> >> they
> >> >> use to build.
> >> >>
> >> >> Also the Maven 2.x IDE integration will soon have the ability
> >> to pull
> >> >> indices from repositories in order to provide drop down/searchable
> >> >> lists of available artifacts so it will be easy to grab new
> >> artifacts
> >> >> to put in your POMs. An IDE could easily provide a set of
> >> >> repositories to pull indices from at which point the user is
> >> going to
> >> >> merrily start pulling down dependencies. When you select an
> >> artifact
> >> >> you always select the version, like in the Eclipse integration, so
> >> >> people will see "apache-incubator" over and over. They will see
> >> the
> >> >> repository entry once.
> >> >>
> >> >> If I then had to go to the people doing IDE integration and say
> >> >> please don't include the apache incubator repository. So you are
> >> >> going to make us:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1) Deny people the right to distribute software as described in
> >> our
> >> >> license
> >> >> 2) Make the Maven developers go search out all third party
> >> >> integration efforts to prevent them from providing convenient
> >> access
> >> >> to certain repositories
> >> >>
> >> >> I think this is a little heavy handed, unfair and unnecessary.
> >> >>
> >> >> > -- dims
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 7:53 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Jason,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Is it rocket science to add a new repo location in pom.xml?
> >> >> *Any*
> >> >> >> > maven newbie learns *very* quickly how to add a new repo.
Are
> >> >> you
> >> >> >> > stating that *IF* the artifacts are not in the central
> >> repo they
> >> >> >> won't
> >> >> >> > find it and won't know how to use it?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> As a force of habit most Maven users, particularly those coming
> >> >> from
> >> >> >> Maven 1.x, assume all open source artifacts are in the central
> >> >> >> repository. And in most cases for Maven 2.x all artifact
> >> >> required are
> >> >> >> placed in the central repository.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It would be an unnecessary inconvenience. If the goal is to
> >> raise
> >> >> >> awareness that it is from the incubator then it can be done
> >> >> with the
> >> >> >> version. It could even be
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> 1.0-apache-incubator-foo (1)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> As I think that would be preferable to users and that is
> >> >> abundantly
> >> >> >> clear I think.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > The least anyone will need to
> >> >> >> > know is the artifact id and version id and they find
this
> >> >> when they
> >> >> >> > browse a project's pages, are you stating that a user
will
> >> never
> >> >> >> look
> >> >> >> > at anyone's web site or download area and will *ONLY*
look at
> >> >> >> ibiblio
> >> >> >> > repo and decide to use a project?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The whole point of Maven is to make this easy for users and
not
> >> >> have
> >> >> >> to look at a project's site. Maven users expect what they
need
> >> >> to be
> >> >> >> in the central repository as shown by the many threads when
> >> >> users go
> >> >> >> to use Sun JARs and we don't have them in the central
> >> repository.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > If they do indeed look, isn't it
> >> >> >> > trivial to add instructions on adding info on how to
add the
> >> >> >> > incubation repo? Where's the problem?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> A lot of times people actually go to the central repository
to
> >> >> find
> >> >> >> the artifact's groupId and artifactId. They don't go to project
> >> >> >> websites, they go to the authority which is the central
> >> >> repository.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If the goal here is user awareness then I think using an
> >> >> version like
> >> >> >> (1) supports this end to a great extent while being more
> >> >> convenient
> >> >> >> for the average Maven user.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > -- dims
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 1:48 PM 30 Aug 06, Justin Erenkrantz
wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Dan Diephouse <dan@envoisolutions.com>
wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> policy, so I see those as in conflict right
now. So I
> >> >> want to
> >> >> >> >> know on
> >> >> >> >> >> what grounds the incubator can prevent me
from requesting
> >> >> that
> >> >> >> >> some
> >> >> >> >> >> incubating jars from being uploaded to ibiblio.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Common decency?  If we (as the project owners)
ask those
> >> >> >> >> artifacts not
> >> >> >> >> > to be posted, then they shouldn't be posted
as a matter of
> >> >> >> >> courtesy.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> It just means that we have to start watching for
requests
> >> >> >> coming from
> >> >> >> >> users to put artifacts in the repository. Effectively
you
> >> are
> >> >> >> asking
> >> >> >> >> us to deny the terms of redistribution stated in
our license
> >> >> >> are you
> >> >> >> >> not?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> We could watch for requests going into Ibiblio, but
we can't
> >> >> >> prevent
> >> >> >> >> someone else from putting in a repository that they
might
> >> use.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> What is going to happen is that people are going
to want
> >> to use
> >> >> >> these
> >> >> >> >> artifacts and they will want to rsync Ibiblio, which
many
> >> >> >> people do,
> >> >> >> >> and then attempt to rsync  the incubator repository.
We are
> >> >> just
> >> >> >> >> going to try and circumvent a path that we cannot
fully
> >> >> block off.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I don't see what is not clear with *every* incubator
> >> artifact
> >> >> >> being
> >> >> >> >> marked with a version that has "incubator" in it.
Plus the
> >> >> reports
> >> >> >> >> that can be generated give a clear view to users
what
> >> they are
> >> >> >> >> consuming.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I read this:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-
> >> >> >> >> general&m=115440663222532&w=2
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> and to be frank (4) is somewhat paradoxical to me.
You
> >> want an
> >> >> >> >> incubator project to thrive, and grow while we are
> >> tacitly, yet
> >> >> >> >> actively, discouraging their use? I think we should
let
> >> >> people use
> >> >> >> >> their common sense to protect themselves.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> What is being envisioned here as the worst case scenario
of
> >> >> >> using an
> >> >> >> >> incubator artifact for a failed incubator project?
The mail
> >> >> says
> >> >> >> >> protect the user, but from what?
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I'm not going to discourage the use of a project
I'm
> >> >> mentoring and
> >> >> >> >> fully support. I'm going to get everyone on the planet
I
> >> can to
> >> >> >> use
> >> >> >> >> it as fast and as widely as possible.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > -- justin
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-
> >> >> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> >> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> >> >> >> jason@maven.org
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-
> >> >> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > --
> >> >> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web
> >> Service
> >> >> >> > Developers)
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-
> >> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> >> >> jason@maven.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-
> >> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
> >> >> > Developers)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> >> jason@maven.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
> >> > Developers)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> jason@maven.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
> > Developers)
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> Jason van Zyl
> jason@maven.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org


Mime
View raw message