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From "Davanum Srinivas" <dava...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [policy] incubating projects and maven repositories v1.0
Date Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:18:21 GMT
Jason,

Justin used the word "common decency". No one can twist anyone's arm.
If either the ibiblio folks or Maven PMC folks don't honor the
request, well, it's upto them...Here we are setting policy for us the
incubator participants, incubator mentors and incubator pmc folks. If
people working on the incubation project break the policy, then that's
an issue for us.

-- dims

On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> On 30 Aug 06, at 11:18 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
> > Hmm, we are not setting any limits on anyone else, just ourselves. We
> > the incubator folks will not automatically sync *our* repo to the
> > central repo *automatically*. Everyone else can do what they want
> > within their rights.
> >
>
> That doesn't really jive with what Justin said in an earlier thread.
> In that we should tell people not to redistribute incubator artifacts
> and ask they comply out of courtesy.
>
> > -- dims
> >
> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 10:16 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> >>
> >> > Please see this email from Noel:
> >> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-
> >> > general&m=115440482328786&w=2
> >> >
> >>
> >> Why can't both aims be met? That of user protection and user
> >> convenience?
> >>
> >> I cannot see the how marking *each* and *every* incubator artifact
> >> with a version that clearly says it is from the Apache Incubator
> >> gives less clarity then adding a repository element.
> >>
> >> In a standard dependency report like:
> >>
> >> http://jackrabbit.apache.org/dependencies.html
> >>
> >> It would be very clear looking at the version that it came from the
> >> incubator. And if people download these artifacts with non-Maven
> >> tools like an Ant Task, Ivy or simply check in versions of these
> >> artifacts then they will clearly be seen as coming from the
> >> incubator.  If we are going to make it clear then let's do it in the
> >> place where it will be seen by everyone regardless of the tool they
> >> use to build.
> >>
> >> Also the Maven 2.x IDE integration will soon have the ability to pull
> >> indices from repositories in order to provide drop down/searchable
> >> lists of available artifacts so it will be easy to grab new artifacts
> >> to put in your POMs. An IDE could easily provide a set of
> >> repositories to pull indices from at which point the user is going to
> >> merrily start pulling down dependencies. When you select an artifact
> >> you always select the version, like in the Eclipse integration, so
> >> people will see "apache-incubator" over and over. They will see the
> >> repository entry once.
> >>
> >> If I then had to go to the people doing IDE integration and say
> >> please don't include the apache incubator repository. So you are
> >> going to make us:
> >>
> >> 1) Deny people the right to distribute software as described in our
> >> license
> >> 2) Make the Maven developers go search out all third party
> >> integration efforts to prevent them from providing convenient access
> >> to certain repositories
> >>
> >> I think this is a little heavy handed, unfair and unnecessary.
> >>
> >> > -- dims
> >> >
> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 7:53 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Jason,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Is it rocket science to add a new repo location in pom.xml?
> >> *Any*
> >> >> > maven newbie learns *very* quickly how to add a new repo. Are
> >> you
> >> >> > stating that *IF* the artifacts are not in the central repo they
> >> >> won't
> >> >> > find it and won't know how to use it?
> >> >>
> >> >> As a force of habit most Maven users, particularly those coming
> >> from
> >> >> Maven 1.x, assume all open source artifacts are in the central
> >> >> repository. And in most cases for Maven 2.x all artifact
> >> required are
> >> >> placed in the central repository.
> >> >>
> >> >> It would be an unnecessary inconvenience. If the goal is to raise
> >> >> awareness that it is from the incubator then it can be done
> >> with the
> >> >> version. It could even be
> >> >>
> >> >> 1.0-apache-incubator-foo (1)
> >> >>
> >> >> As I think that would be preferable to users and that is
> >> abundantly
> >> >> clear I think.
> >> >>
> >> >> > The least anyone will need to
> >> >> > know is the artifact id and version id and they find this
> >> when they
> >> >> > browse a project's pages, are you stating that a user will never
> >> >> look
> >> >> > at anyone's web site or download area and will *ONLY* look at
> >> >> ibiblio
> >> >> > repo and decide to use a project?
> >> >>
> >> >> The whole point of Maven is to make this easy for users and not
> >> have
> >> >> to look at a project's site. Maven users expect what they need
> >> to be
> >> >> in the central repository as shown by the many threads when
> >> users go
> >> >> to use Sun JARs and we don't have them in the central repository.
> >> >>
> >> >> > If they do indeed look, isn't it
> >> >> > trivial to add instructions on adding info on how to add the
> >> >> > incubation repo? Where's the problem?
> >> >>
> >> >> A lot of times people actually go to the central repository to
> >> find
> >> >> the artifact's groupId and artifactId. They don't go to project
> >> >> websites, they go to the authority which is the central
> >> repository.
> >> >>
> >> >> If the goal here is user awareness then I think using an
> >> version like
> >> >> (1) supports this end to a great extent while being more
> >> convenient
> >> >> for the average Maven user.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -- dims
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 1:48 PM 30 Aug 06, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Dan Diephouse <dan@envoisolutions.com>
wrote:
> >> >> >> >> policy, so I see those as in conflict right now.
So I
> >> want to
> >> >> >> know on
> >> >> >> >> what grounds the incubator can prevent me from requesting
> >> that
> >> >> >> some
> >> >> >> >> incubating jars from being uploaded to ibiblio.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Common decency?  If we (as the project owners) ask those
> >> >> >> artifacts not
> >> >> >> > to be posted, then they shouldn't be posted as a matter
of
> >> >> >> courtesy.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It just means that we have to start watching for requests
> >> >> coming from
> >> >> >> users to put artifacts in the repository. Effectively you
are
> >> >> asking
> >> >> >> us to deny the terms of redistribution stated in our license
> >> >> are you
> >> >> >> not?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> We could watch for requests going into Ibiblio, but we can't
> >> >> prevent
> >> >> >> someone else from putting in a repository that they might
use.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What is going to happen is that people are going to want to
use
> >> >> these
> >> >> >> artifacts and they will want to rsync Ibiblio, which many
> >> >> people do,
> >> >> >> and then attempt to rsync  the incubator repository. We are
> >> just
> >> >> >> going to try and circumvent a path that we cannot fully
> >> block off.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I don't see what is not clear with *every* incubator artifact
> >> >> being
> >> >> >> marked with a version that has "incubator" in it. Plus the
> >> reports
> >> >> >> that can be generated give a clear view to users what they
are
> >> >> >> consuming.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I read this:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-
> >> >> >> general&m=115440663222532&w=2
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> and to be frank (4) is somewhat paradoxical to me. You want
an
> >> >> >> incubator project to thrive, and grow while we are tacitly,
yet
> >> >> >> actively, discouraging their use? I think we should let
> >> people use
> >> >> >> their common sense to protect themselves.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What is being envisioned here as the worst case scenario of
> >> >> using an
> >> >> >> incubator artifact for a failed incubator project? The mail
> >> says
> >> >> >> protect the user, but from what?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I'm not going to discourage the use of a project I'm
> >> mentoring and
> >> >> >> fully support. I'm going to get everyone on the planet I can
to
> >> >> use
> >> >> >> it as fast and as widely as possible.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > -- justin
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-
> >> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> >> >> jason@maven.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-
> >> unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
> >> >> > Developers)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> >> jason@maven.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
> >> > Developers)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> jason@maven.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
> > Developers)
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> Jason van Zyl
> jason@maven.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>


-- 
Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers)

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