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From "Davanum Srinivas" <dava...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [policy] incubating projects and maven repositories v1.0
Date Thu, 31 Aug 2006 03:18:58 GMT
Hmm, we are not setting any limits on anyone else, just ourselves. We
the incubator folks will not automatically sync *our* repo to the
central repo *automatically*. Everyone else can do what they want
within their rights.

-- dims

On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
>
> On 30 Aug 06, at 10:16 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
> > Please see this email from Noel:
> > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-
> > general&m=115440482328786&w=2
> >
>
> Why can't both aims be met? That of user protection and user
> convenience?
>
> I cannot see the how marking *each* and *every* incubator artifact
> with a version that clearly says it is from the Apache Incubator
> gives less clarity then adding a repository element.
>
> In a standard dependency report like:
>
> http://jackrabbit.apache.org/dependencies.html
>
> It would be very clear looking at the version that it came from the
> incubator. And if people download these artifacts with non-Maven
> tools like an Ant Task, Ivy or simply check in versions of these
> artifacts then they will clearly be seen as coming from the
> incubator.  If we are going to make it clear then let's do it in the
> place where it will be seen by everyone regardless of the tool they
> use to build.
>
> Also the Maven 2.x IDE integration will soon have the ability to pull
> indices from repositories in order to provide drop down/searchable
> lists of available artifacts so it will be easy to grab new artifacts
> to put in your POMs. An IDE could easily provide a set of
> repositories to pull indices from at which point the user is going to
> merrily start pulling down dependencies. When you select an artifact
> you always select the version, like in the Eclipse integration, so
> people will see "apache-incubator" over and over. They will see the
> repository entry once.
>
> If I then had to go to the people doing IDE integration and say
> please don't include the apache incubator repository. So you are
> going to make us:
>
> 1) Deny people the right to distribute software as described in our
> license
> 2) Make the Maven developers go search out all third party
> integration efforts to prevent them from providing convenient access
> to certain repositories
>
> I think this is a little heavy handed, unfair and unnecessary.
>
> > -- dims
> >
> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 7:53 PM 30 Aug 06, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> >>
> >> > Jason,
> >> >
> >> > Is it rocket science to add a new repo location in pom.xml? *Any*
> >> > maven newbie learns *very* quickly how to add a new repo. Are you
> >> > stating that *IF* the artifacts are not in the central repo they
> >> won't
> >> > find it and won't know how to use it?
> >>
> >> As a force of habit most Maven users, particularly those coming from
> >> Maven 1.x, assume all open source artifacts are in the central
> >> repository. And in most cases for Maven 2.x all artifact required are
> >> placed in the central repository.
> >>
> >> It would be an unnecessary inconvenience. If the goal is to raise
> >> awareness that it is from the incubator then it can be done with the
> >> version. It could even be
> >>
> >> 1.0-apache-incubator-foo (1)
> >>
> >> As I think that would be preferable to users and that is abundantly
> >> clear I think.
> >>
> >> > The least anyone will need to
> >> > know is the artifact id and version id and they find this when they
> >> > browse a project's pages, are you stating that a user will never
> >> look
> >> > at anyone's web site or download area and will *ONLY* look at
> >> ibiblio
> >> > repo and decide to use a project?
> >>
> >> The whole point of Maven is to make this easy for users and not have
> >> to look at a project's site. Maven users expect what they need to be
> >> in the central repository as shown by the many threads when users go
> >> to use Sun JARs and we don't have them in the central repository.
> >>
> >> > If they do indeed look, isn't it
> >> > trivial to add instructions on adding info on how to add the
> >> > incubation repo? Where's the problem?
> >>
> >> A lot of times people actually go to the central repository to find
> >> the artifact's groupId and artifactId. They don't go to project
> >> websites, they go to the authority which is the central repository.
> >>
> >> If the goal here is user awareness then I think using an version like
> >> (1) supports this end to a great extent while being more convenient
> >> for the average Maven user.
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > -- dims
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 8/30/06, Jason van Zyl <jason@maven.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On 30 Aug 06, at 1:48 PM 30 Aug 06, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On 8/30/06, Dan Diephouse <dan@envoisolutions.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> policy, so I see those as in conflict right now. So I want
to
> >> >> know on
> >> >> >> what grounds the incubator can prevent me from requesting
that
> >> >> some
> >> >> >> incubating jars from being uploaded to ibiblio.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Common decency?  If we (as the project owners) ask those
> >> >> artifacts not
> >> >> > to be posted, then they shouldn't be posted as a matter of
> >> >> courtesy.
> >> >>
> >> >> It just means that we have to start watching for requests
> >> coming from
> >> >> users to put artifacts in the repository. Effectively you are
> >> asking
> >> >> us to deny the terms of redistribution stated in our license
> >> are you
> >> >> not?
> >> >>
> >> >> We could watch for requests going into Ibiblio, but we can't
> >> prevent
> >> >> someone else from putting in a repository that they might use.
> >> >>
> >> >> What is going to happen is that people are going to want to use
> >> these
> >> >> artifacts and they will want to rsync Ibiblio, which many
> >> people do,
> >> >> and then attempt to rsync  the incubator repository. We are just
> >> >> going to try and circumvent a path that we cannot fully block off.
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't see what is not clear with *every* incubator artifact
> >> being
> >> >> marked with a version that has "incubator" in it. Plus the reports
> >> >> that can be generated give a clear view to users what they are
> >> >> consuming.
> >> >>
> >> >> I read this:
> >> >>
> >> >> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-
> >> >> general&m=115440663222532&w=2
> >> >>
> >> >> and to be frank (4) is somewhat paradoxical to me. You want an
> >> >> incubator project to thrive, and grow while we are tacitly, yet
> >> >> actively, discouraging their use? I think we should let people use
> >> >> their common sense to protect themselves.
> >> >>
> >> >> What is being envisioned here as the worst case scenario of
> >> using an
> >> >> incubator artifact for a failed incubator project? The mail says
> >> >> protect the user, but from what?
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm not going to discourage the use of a project I'm mentoring and
> >> >> fully support. I'm going to get everyone on the planet I can to
> >> use
> >> >> it as fast and as widely as possible.
> >> >>
> >> >> > -- justin
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-
> >> help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> >> jason@maven.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
> >> > Developers)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Jason van Zyl
> >> jason@maven.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service
> > Developers)
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> Jason van Zyl
> jason@maven.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers)

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