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From Sanjiva Weerawarana <>
Subject Re: Various
Date Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:29:26 GMT
On Fri, 2006-06-23 at 05:52 +0100, Hani Suleiman wrote:
> It is interesting to note that all the people who have objected are  
> those who feel personally offended by some of my writing  
> (specifically, the tomcat and axis2 rants...ironically my tomcat 

I was never personally offended by your rants. However, I was very
impressed by what it shows about you as a person.

> I'm sorry that you can't take  
> a little criticism, and while I will happily admit that yes, I did  
> insult you in ways that you probably didn't quite expect, I fully  
> stand by everything I said, and will still insist that Axis2 and  
> Tomcat are awful projects, that are badly written and have only  
> gotten where they are today due to marketing forces, instead of  
> technical merit.

Thanks for clarifying this- several people have said on this list that
your blog is simply a public persona and that you don't really believe
in what you write there. 

Your statement shows that they don't know you as well as they thought
they did!

> I am perplexed that you feel that a dislike of an  
> Apache project merits a membership rejection though. Does everyone at  
> Apache love every project there? If that were the case, then the  
> whole ecosystem is in a far unhealthier state than anyone on the  
> outside might suspect.

Who said anything about loving every project? Apache is fundamentally
about communities and not about code. It doesn't matter whether I or any
other ASF person likes the technical rationale/motivation/aspects of the
project or not- as long as a healthy community exists for it then its a
great project from ASF's perspective. That project may produce software
for underwater basketweaving, but the ASF doesn't worry about the
technical merits of such software.

> I believe in cxfire, and think it's a superb project. I think  
> competition in this space is healthy, and think it's rather lame that  
> people like dims and sanjiva keep trying to cast doubts on the  
> validity of the project, just because it happens to eat into their  
> projected revenues. 

Coming from a guy who loves to dish out criticism, how come you can't
take a bit of it?

The "casting doubt" was to understand what it is .. the proposal talks
about SOA etc. etc. and James, one of the mentors, says "SOA means
nothing" (paraphrased) and the different people give different
explanations of what it is. If the people who proposed the project don't
quite agree what it is, how do you expect to form a healthy community?

Here's what I wrote to James' explanation of what it is:

On Thu, 2006-06-22 at 17:30 +0200, James Strachan wrote:
> CeltixFire is aimed at implementing the JAX-WS/JAX-WSA/JSR-181
> standards which are the newer standards for working with SOAP &
> WS-Addressing on the Java platform

Thanks for the clarification. So its basically an alternate to Axis2 as
we are working on all these specs there too; which of course is cool ..
alternates are a good way to figure out different ways of skinning a cat
and eventually we'll find the right way (hopefully before the cat
dies ;-)).

Where is there anything there saying Apache doesn't accept alternatives?
Or where does it say that I objected to it?

If its an alternate to Axis2, then I'm glad to +1 it. 

> It does feel like there's a small amount of  
> hypocrisy going around, where people express concern that cxfire has  
> many IONA people involved, without noticing that most of the  
> objectors are WSO2 people, who (quite rationally) put WSO2 priorities  
> ahead of Apache ones.

Instead of looking at where people are employed why don't you look at
what we do in Apache and why that gives us the credibility to ask these

I've been contributing to Apache since 1998, when I wrote the extension
code for Xalan, using then IBM BSF, which also I created. BSF is of
course now an Apache project. I was the one who created Apache SOAP
originally (along with Matt Duftler from my group in IBM). I've
participated in numerous WS projects and created the Axis2 effort long
before WSO2 was even conceived. I doubt you can find a *single* place
where I've let WSO2 priorities come in front of ASF ones. 

Paul has been involved since about 2001, when the WSIF project was
donated to Apache by IBM. Paul is now a leading contributor to Synapse.

Dims has been around since I don't know when .. before me too I believe
(in Cocoon) and he is of course chair of the WS PMC, which is a position
he earned by his long and solid contributions to WS projects. Again, he
got to that position before WSO2 was ever conceived.

We have all *earned* the right to question what these new projects are
how they should or should not be brought into the ASF. 

> If there's a policy of only endorsing one technology for any given  
> field within Apache, then sure, cxfire does not belong. If there is  
> space for allowing competing technologies, then I fail to see why  
> xfire choosing to ignore axis2 or not support it has any relevant at  
> all as to whether it can live in Apache or not.

Absolutely +1.

> I'd like to think that Apache is a meritocracy, driven by technology,  
> with no allegiance to commercial interests. 

Ah that's where you're mistaken- we're a meritocracy driven by people,
not by technology. Build a better community and the code will sort
itself out. 

> It is driven by the  
> concept of open source for the sake of open source; not open source  
> that we can now build a company around and get funding and piss  
> around with in order to make a living to avoid having a real job. 


> Certainly not the latter to the exclusion of the former! On that  
> basis, I cannot conceive of a single good reason for rejecting  
> cxfire. By all criteria that count, it's a successful project, it is  
> widely deployed, it has an active developer base, and an interested  
> and participatory community. So what if it happens to be technically  
> superior to Axis2 (at least, in most people's opinions), is that a  
> reason to reject it?

Why do you (appear to) assume this project is rejected?

Why did you convert this to a cxfire vs. axis2? 

I said this already- if its an alternate to Axis2, +1 from me for
bringing it to Apache. 

Is that what it is? You guys can't seem to make your own mind up! AFAICT
the Celtix guys don't see themselves as an alternative to Axis2 .. if it
is then say so. 

I don't understand the big deal; the ASF does not have exactly one
implementation for one technology .. we're not a company. 

> I apologise if I've offended anyone, that was certainly not my  
> intent, in this case. I also apologise for being blunt and  
> undiplomatic, but this thread was too silly and the issues raised too  
> pedantic for me not to stoop to the same level. To the sane people  
> who responded with sensible requests and criticisms, I sincerely  
> apologise, and hope you see my rather long discourse as an heartfelt  
> plea for sanity and objectivity, rather than dismissing it as the  
> ranting of a rather angry random java guy.

Ah so all these WS-* guys who responded aren't sane? We know this space
dude, why don't you try answering the questions instead of going on a
personal attack?

I made a mistake in raising a concern about you publicly and I've
already apologized for it (to you even). So you have some right to
return the favor .. which I take this email as. I'd be perfectly happy
to convert this conversation to a technical discussion, which several
people claimed you're really good at and capable of. 

So, can you answer the technical issues that have been raised without
attacking those who asked the questions and assuming that those
questions are motivated by trying to keep you guys out of the ASF? Jeez,
I'm *much* smarter than that Hani. And I even have the long hair to
prove it.


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