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Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:36:00 -0500
From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <geirm@apache.org>
Subject: Re: Is the incubator out of control?
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On Dec 23, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:11:55AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> I am no longer convinced of this.  Having the Incubator PMC there as
>> a "check and balance" is a good thing as it requires engagement from
>> others interested in this aspect of ASF life.  It prevents one
>> individual or one PMC from being able to make significant social or
>> technological change, or at least ensure that there is a
>> theoretically impartial observer keeping track.  It allows interested
>> members and other community members to "put their money where their
>> mouth is" on this topic, and join the Incubator PMC to help out.
>
> I don't think that can scale appropriately.
>
> Why would the Incubator PMC know more about whether mod_ftp is a  
> good fit
> for the Foundation than the entire HTTP Server PMC?

I certainly agree that in 99% of the cases, this would be the case,  
and I would never expect the Incubator PMC to ever stand in the way  
of any proposal unless there is good reason of broader scope.   
Healthy PMCs will IMO always do the right thing.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Incubator having to vote  
and therefore do some due-diligence.  It also does give the Incubator  
PMC some control over rate of growth.  I'm worried about growth, but  
not anti-, but certainly worry about the incubator being stretched  
too thin to effectively provide the legal oversight and community  
shaping.  Our incoming rate is faster than the outgoing rate - at  
what point do we have more than we can handle?

Imagine if every PMC did what the Geronimo PMC just did, and invited  
in say 5 new projects (as is their right).

That's about 150 new podlings at once.  How would we deal with that?   
I don't expect this to happen, but maybe you can see my point.

>
>> I think that there's little downside to this.  A check on the
>> Incubator PMC is the board - any member or PMC could appeal to the
>> board in the event that they believed their proposals were not being
>> treated fairly, or if the Incubator PMC was behaving in general in a
>> way they disagreed with.
>>
>> And the board has to answer to the membership.
>
> I believe that there is *major* downside to having the Incubator PMC
> second-guess the decisions of other PMCs.
>
> If someone doesn't like the decision of a PMC, they shouldn't be  
> able to
> use the Inucbator PMC as cover for their attacks.  People who don't  
> like
> what's going on in that PMC should confront that PMC directly.  If  
> they
> don't like what's going on in that PMC and have tried to redress their
> grievances directly, they can go to the Board.

I'm assuming a healthy Incubator PMC here - not one in which one  
person can leverage to attack a PMC.

> Although, the Board is rightly wary of interposing itself in technical
> decisions.  We have no idea what makes technical sense or not either.

Right - I wouldn't think that the Incubator PMC would want to make  
decisions based on technical merit either.  That's a non-starter - we  
have to assume that each PMC is the most clueful in their technology  
domain.

But code sources, committer diversity, availability of volunteer  
resources in and around the incubator all are things we can  
consider.  Like it or not, the INcubator PMC is the locus of these  
efforts, and it's real resources that are needed for each podling.

>
>>> Cynics like me are the *worst* possible judges of what's cool and
>>> what's
>>> not.  That's the fundamental problem I have with this entire
>>> thread: people
>>> are trying to limit the growth or exclude projects.  How?  On what
>>> basis?
>>
>> I agree here - I would never want to exclude based on technology.  I
>> do the thought experiment from time to time and ask myself which
>> projects I would have excluded if ordered to limit growth at the ASF,
>> and I never have a good answer. Maybe not let those "toaster language
>> bytecode people" in?  I think our current java communities are a
>> *huge* asset.  How about the pointy-bracket folks?
>>
>> We need to actually increase our technical diversity here - we have
>> no real Ruby-oriented communities, nor any coherent .NET identity,
>> and I think that's going to hurt us in the long run.
>
> That's why this talk about limiting growth is so dangerous.  The  
> foundation
> should go where our PMCs and our members want.  -- justin

It's dangerous, but it's also a consideration of a vocal and active  
part of the membership.  It can't be ignored.

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr                                  +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org


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