From general-return-6567-apmail-incubator-general-archive=incubator.apache.org@incubator.apache.org Wed Dec 21 09:55:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 78126 invoked from network); 21 Dec 2005 09:55:09 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (209.237.227.199) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 21 Dec 2005 09:55:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 92300 invoked by uid 500); 21 Dec 2005 09:54:44 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 92147 invoked by uid 500); 21 Dec 2005 09:54:43 -0000 Mailing-List: contact general-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list general@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 92087 invoked by uid 99); 21 Dec 2005 09:54:42 -0000 Received: from asf.osuosl.org (HELO asf.osuosl.org) (140.211.166.49) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:54:42 -0800 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: neutral (asf.osuosl.org: local policy) Received: from [137.194.2.10] (HELO smtp2.enst.fr) (137.194.2.10) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 01:54:40 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA4CB6B03 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:54:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from smtp2.enst.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (revol3.enst.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 45849-04-4 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:54:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from baradur.aptiwan.com (aptiwan-web.enst.fr [137.194.2.55]) by smtp2.enst.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F364C6EE1 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:54:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by baradur.aptiwan.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C825501E3 for ; Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:34:10 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <43A9263B.3000704@apache.org> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:54:03 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rapha=EBl_Luta?= Organization: ASF User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: AJAX Toolkit Framework Proposal References: <43A89372.7030607@apache.org> <16d6c6200512201649r5ab92c24r76aeb7916b1c9c30@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <16d6c6200512201649r5ab92c24r76aeb7916b1c9c30@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at enst.fr X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Martin Cooper wrote: > > Personally, I am less than happy at seeing yet another large project > proposed from a corporate source (and IBM at that), along with a dozen new > committers who have not earned their merit at the ASF as most committers > have. I feel the ASF is losing its way, and becoming a repository for > corporate open-sourcing along with taking on responsibility for building > communities around corporate code bases. I suspect I'm in the minority at > the ASF, and I'm undoubtedly in the minority here in the incubator. But > there doesn't seem to be a way for the incubator to say "no thanks", other > than by a podling failing the incubation process, and that seems wrong to > me. > You may be in the minority but you're not alone, I'll admit to being *very* uneasy on this proposal. To me it raises all the possible incubation warning bells: Criteria ======== * Meritocracy: I don't believe it looking at the committer list. Who's going to argue with his VP of engineering ? To create a real meritocracy, you can't have an established hierarchy in the committership. * Community: none * Core developers: no existing Apache committer or Apache member * Alignment: no simple mission statement but trying two roll out 2 complementary sub projects into a single community. Warning signs ============= * Orphaned products: Apparently no * Inexperience with open-source: Limited experience if I judge by the number of OSS related hits tied to the proposed committer names on Google. Only 3 names get some hits. You can also how Zimbra as a corp currently gets it here: http://www.zimbra.com/community/ * Homogenous developers/salaried developers: Definitely yes, all work for 2 companies with strong hierarchical ties in the proposed committer base * No ties to Apache products: True * Fascination with Apache brand: True, just see prc@ activity. As is, I can't see a single reason to support the proposal ans see several to vote a strong -1 on it in its current form : - The proposal is too large to incubate, it's hard enough to create a community from scratch around a single well-defined goal and codebase, rolling 2 together is suicide in my book. - I don't see any benefit for the ASF and several drawbacks (more hard work and strain on resources, possible PR complications, additionnal strain on friendly relations with other OSS groups like Eclipse) - There's no mentor yet ! Bad sign... - The odds of this project of successfully exiting the Incubator based on the diversity of community criteria seem very low to me: there are too many initial committers and most of them will have strong internal communication channels which will be invisible from the community. - I don't believe most of the proposed committers would get committership on their own merit and I would hate the Incubator to become an easy way to bypass the meritocratic model of the ASF: work at IBM and get a free committership when they donate the codebase to the ASF ! Most of the time you end up with paid-for-committers that only last as long as they're told to work on the project. (This is not pure paranoia ;) just look at Pluto if you want to see it in effect) In summary I see this proposal as a high risk, low value offer to the ASF and would definitely pass on it. -- Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java http://portals.apache.org/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org