From general-return-6692-apmail-incubator-general-archive=incubator.apache.org@incubator.apache.org Fri Dec 23 09:08:00 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 19215 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2005 09:08:00 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (209.237.227.199) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 23 Dec 2005 09:08:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 27575 invoked by uid 500); 23 Dec 2005 09:07:55 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 27204 invoked by uid 500); 23 Dec 2005 09:07:54 -0000 Mailing-List: contact general-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list general@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 27193 invoked by uid 99); 23 Dec 2005 09:07:54 -0000 Received: from asf.osuosl.org (HELO asf.osuosl.org) (140.211.166.49) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:07:54 -0800 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=10.0 tests= X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: neutral (asf.osuosl.org: local policy) Received: from [128.195.24.168] (HELO scotch.ics.uci.edu) (128.195.24.168) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:07:53 -0800 Received: from scotch.ics.uci.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scotch.ics.uci.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id jBN97WLt004481 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jerenk@localhost) by scotch.ics.uci.edu (8.13.4+Sun/8.12.11/Submit) id jBN97WMp004480 for general@incubator.apache.org; Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:07:32 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: scotch.ics.uci.edu: jerenk set sender to justin@erenkrantz.com using -f Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:07:32 -0800 From: Justin Erenkrantz To: general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Is the incubator out of control? Message-ID: <20051223090732.GH820@scotch.ics.uci.edu> References: <96B33608-506E-46A1-A31B-7B2E4F342B80@sauria.com> <3632699A-C493-4D8C-AAF7-43F7B7463FFB@sauria.com> <1135323792.2818.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1135323792.2818.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.0-r232569 (2005-08-13) on scotch.ics.uci.edu X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org X-Old-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=no version=3.2.0-r232569 X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 01:43:11PM +0600, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: > With a lot of due respect Roy, I think the argument that unless one > helps with infra one does not have a right to belly-ache is absurd. Not > everyone is infra-savvy and/or infra-interested. I refuse to accept that > not contributing to infra reduces Ted's or my contributions to the > foundation or the incubator. I believe that misses Roy's point: it's not about infra - it's about dictating an individual's effort towards or against a particular project. The ASF has never been about telling someone else what to do. The comments that are being made in this thread are along the lines of "I know better than you and you shouldn't work on this project because I think it's bad or XYZ is better." That is not who we are or are about: you can not make that value decision for anyone else. If any ASF PMC believes it is in the best interest of the Foundation to accept a podling and they are willing to dedicate resources ("people") - then anyone on the Incubator PMC has no standing to challenge that decision. When a PMC approves a podling, the only thing the Incubator PMC can decide is whether the project can "leave" the Incubator. Even without a PMC, if *one* of our members out there thinks a project is worth doing and they can write something mildly resembling a charter down on paper, that's all I need to hear for a +1. The project *they* believe in deserves the institutional support of the Foundation. We can not be second-guessing people's motives as to why they believe it's a good idea. Cynics like me are the *worst* possible judges of what's cool and what's not. That's the fundamental problem I have with this entire thread: people are trying to limit the growth or exclude projects. How? On what basis? To do so is to bang our collective heads on the wall: closing our borders is to forget where we came from and why we're here at all. -- justin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org