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From Tim Williams <william...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [RT] Super Simple Site Generation Tool
Date Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:16:51 GMT
On 12/29/05, Greg Stein <gstein@lyra.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 01:12:52PM +1100, David Crossley wrote:
> >...
> > If people have issues with Forrest, then please take them
> > to the user@forrest mailing list. It is totally unfair
> > to a new project to just criticise it from afar. We get
> > very few emails to the user mailing list about any issues
> > with Forrest. This seems to be especially the case with
> > committers from Apache projects that decided to use Forrest.
> >...
> > There are zero postings from Leo to user@forrest and
> > one or two relevant ones to dev@forrest.

Welcome to our community.  We are free from being grounded in any
reality.  We are free from talking in the concrete, preferring instead
to make baseless general statements.  Over the years our egos have
grown so large that we no longer see a need to ask questions even
though we don't know the answers.  Instead, we'll bitch and complain
and blame it on our fellow community member's crappy tool.  Our time
is so valuable that we'd prefer to grossly over-exaggerate how bad the
tool is than actually try to help fellow members of our community make
it better -- that's there problem, after all, and it's tons easier to
just spout nonsense than actually contribute to *someone else's*
problem.  This introduction to community isn't from an Apache novice
like me, it's what I've learned by watching those more experienced
old-timers that I have so much respect for... Dissappointing to say
the least...

Now on to the hyperbole...

> The last time that I had to update the
> incubator site, I had to download a JRE for my box.

C'mon, it's a java-based app after all.  I assume this was your first
time ever running forrest or any other java app?  That you lump
*having* to download a JRE in with Forrest's issues just shows me that
you're not really trying to help at all, just adding a little noise to
make your point a little stronger I suppose.  Same thing will happen
with this new Super Simple Tool -- you'll have to download a python
interpreter.

> Then I had to
> *checkout* about dozen *megabytes* of various java projects. I'm
> talking about megabytes of *source* code.

I really don't know why we ship the little bit of source code with
Forrest to be honest -- doesn't make much since.  To put your flagrant
hyperbole into perspective though, your megabytes==140k.  Yep, Forrest
0.7 has a whopping 140k of source code.  We do have numerous jars that
add considerably to the size being ~29M -- we should really try to
trim that down considerably before our 1.0 release.

> That got built into
> something like another 60 megabytes over the next 30 minutes.

A couple thoughts come to mind here...  If you're a user, why are you
building it anyway -- just use the distribution.  As I said, 0.7 is
~29M built, I don't know how that got doubled on your machine.  As to
the 30 minutes, did you figure out how to get a JRE on that Commodore
64 or something?  It consistently takes ~9 seconds to build forrest on
my box which is not a high-end machine by any stretch.  Bottom line: 
You appear to be doing several things wrong here and you could help
yourself, Forrest, and the ASF community a great deal by simply asking
instead of hyperbolizing.

> Then I
> had to get the thing running against my Incubator site checkout. Once
> I got it all working, then I was able to make my 10-line edit.

I think David said that the Incubator is using HTML as source so all
this was for nothing, you could have simply made your edits.  Again,
no one is too much of an expert to ask questions every now and then.

All in all, I'm incredibly dissappointed with some of the older and
wiser folks' apparent idea of community.  Here, I'm not talking so
much about a tool.  I'm talking about just a total lack of respect and
helpfulness.  I mean, if folks are too lazy to RTFM or learn how to do
things or ask questions.. fine... but why trash the work of fellow
community members because of your own laziness?    I think all of the
folks on Forrest openly admit to its blemishes (and it has plenty),
more so than other projects I think.  But it's unfortunate to hear
fellow community members spout issues that indicate a lack of
understanding rather than real issues and to use gross
exaggeration/hyperbole to make the non-issue a appear a little
stronger.

(non-binding) +0 to dumping Forrest in the incubator...

--tim

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