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From Geir Magnusson Jr <g...@pobox.com>
Subject Re: [RT] Super Simple Site Generation Tool
Date Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:09:21 GMT
Hopefully my last post. I'd have stopped a while ago, but I thought I 
was being helpful by telling you about a use case that I thought legit 
that had me stumbling and to show I wasn't just whining.

Ross Gardler wrote:

[SNIP]

> 
> Now please let the "dead horse" drop. Simply admit that you don't have 
> the time or inclination to ask questions or read docs and therefore 
> you'd rather see someone build a simpler tool that you have the time to 
> understand.

I wrote a simpler tool.  I was one of the primary authors of Velocity, 
and worked closely with Jon on Anakia.  I also then wrote DVSL which is 
what Jon really wanted Anakia to be - a Velocity-driven alternative to XSLT.

So I think I have some reasonable idea of the kind of tool that can be 
built and is desired for what we need to do here.  Sure, Forrest has 
lots of nice features, but your users are stumbling over stuff for not 
so off-the-wall use cases.

Either Forrest is overkill for what we need, or you need a few 
improvements for newbies based on how newbies or casual site owners do 
things.

[SNIP]

> Forrest is much more than the "simple site generation tool" that the 
> subject says is wanted here, I recognise that Forrest may not be the 
> right tool for this job. I happen to disagree, but I recognise the 
> possibility.

Well, if you believe Forrest could be, then do it :)  Some basic things 
that you've heard here -

1) Don't make us checkout some fixed branch of source and build it. I 
was recently admonished for using the actual release from the project to 
  build the Incubator site.   I used to want to build everything, 
including my Linux Kernels.  I'm too old now.

2) Reduce the surprises.  Consider that many people here have become 
accustomed - rightly or wrongly - to the way Anakia tries to render 
everything in the doc tree, and see what you can do to fix that and 
mimic that workflow and the user expectations that arise from knowing it.

3) When I touch something via browser in 'forrest run' mode, WRITE THE 
CHANGE TO DISK.  I (as the user) think that I'm looking at the site as 
rendered, and was really stumped when no such change really happened.

3) Don't expect that I'm going to go and read Forrest docs to do what I 
(as the user) think of as basic things.  I won't.   I did read the 
5-step on the Forrest site that fateful saturday when I was trying to 
fix that orphan page, and I thought I did all the right things.  I 
supposed I did from your POV - it's just that my "right things" and your 
"right things" are different, and hence the gap.

Thanks for sticking with us here on this.  I know what it's like to be 
piled on in a public forum, and none of us meant to do that.  It's just 
that there is legitimate frustration.

geir

> 

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