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From: "Noel J. Bergman" <noel@devtech.com>
To: <general@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: RE: [VOTE] Re: request for incubation: axion database project
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 15:10:32 -0500
Message-ID: <NBBBJGEAGJAKLIDBKJOPCEHIGBAB.noel@devtech.com>
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Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > > The Incubator is a morass and big hinderance to getting anything
done.
> > > > Is there a fee for this troll?
> > > See it as you like, the Incubator doesn't work, plain and simple.
> > By the same logic, neither does anything that wasn't born fully
functional
> > and flawless.  After all, nothing changes.

> nothing is born flawless and perfect it is a matter of adaptation.
> When the ASF was born it was highly adaptable which is why it has
> done so well.

The Incubator, since August and especially in the past few weeks, has gone
through major adaptive changes.  So rapidly that the website does not, yet,
reflect them.  And, honestly, the earlier round was more rule formation.
OK, we've all made that mistake, but we now we're trying to correct it.  :-)

> > Now ... if you want to stop hand waving, and get down to brass tacks, my
> > idea is that we would use projects@incubator.apache.org (with or without
> > projects-ppmc@) for most projects like Axion that have a well-defined
> > destination, a community, and are expected to sail through.

> If this is a sort of fast track for projects we know to be fine by
> virtue of existing connections with Apache then that would
> definitely be good.

Ok, see?  We are on the same page.  We are adapting to make things better.

> > We need to complete a STATUS page, especially regarding the IP,
> > and vote on it.  So you tell me, Jason, where is this all-
> >consuming hinderance of which you speak?

> [ list complaints about website and lack of good info ]
> o basically a completely unclear path and when people ask
>   for help it often goes unanswered. Lots of people are
>   answering Rodney today because I'm in everyone's face.

I was responding to him before your comments.  And now I am spending time
with you, rather than talking to Rodney about what to do.  But that's fine,
because now that we've gotten this far, we can take care of both.

Since I suspect that many people will have stopped reading by now, if you
don't mind, I will provide my constructive reply to your question in a fresh
reply to Rodney.

> > The preceding is my proposal for handling all such projects.

> Great, now why wasn't some common sense like that employed when this
> whole show started? Because the tendency leans toward the voluminous
> and unfocused.

That tendency is not unique to the Incubator.  It has become a common
complaint on many ASF lists.  Without engaging in a long discussion about
social systems, let me say that I agree with everyone who has complained
about an accumulation of cruft.  The more we can improve things
structurally, and take a scalpel to layers of built-up (and unncesssary)
rules, the better.  We do need *some* rules, but they should be simple,
clear and necessary to implement our oversight or help promote our core
philosophy of collaborate peer-run projects.

You can help us do that by recognizing when people are trying to accomplish
that task, and endorsing that change rather than perpetuating past
complaints.  Ok?

	--- Noel


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