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Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 14:30:11 -0800
From: Aaron Bannert <aaron@clove.org>
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: PPMCs and oversight
Message-ID: <20031230223011.GF2766@clove.org>
References: <3FEC0755.3040201@apache.org> <3FECAA74.6050207@wingsofhermes.org>
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 <3FEEC228.7000305@apache.org> <20031229040133.GB2766@clove.org>
 <3FEFD194.4000002@apache.org>
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On Mon, Dec 29, 2003 at 08:02:44AM +0100, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >Who are the set of people who may add themselves to this list?
> 
> Apache, Incubator and landing PMC members. Apache members that join 
> should be made part of the Incubator PMC.

I don't know what a landing PMC member is, but +1 to the rest.

> >>This of course does not remove the need to have at least one mentor 
> >>identified in teh project proposal.
> >
> >I'd like to see as many as possible, but putting strict requirements
> >(like this) only adds unnecessary red tape.
> 
> Not at all unnecessary. We must ensure that there is some oversight. Not 
> having anyone looking over it is a risk. We have already seen that a 
> single Mentor is too little, not having any is not thinkable.

And that oversight is ensured by the time we vote for project graduation.
If oversight hasn't been shown, don't vote for it. The fewer mandates
the better. See what I wrote here:

> >In my mind, if a project asks to be released from incubation and
> >hasn't shown any participation by any ASFer, then I'm much less
> >inclined to vote in favor of release.


[...]

> Let me rewrite:
> "
> The PPMC is made of all project committers, Incubator PMC members, and 
> Sponsoring PMC members.

They are? I thought first you get commit access then you get invited to
the PMC. On new projects there are no committers, and the PMC is just
the veteral ASFers who want to help out. How about this:

   PPMC members nominate and elect new PPMC members and new committers.

   The initial set of PPMC members is made up of anyone from the Incubator
   PMC who is interested in "Mentoring" the project.

> The Incubator PMC and Sponsoring PMC members that closely follow and 
> participate in the project are called Mentors, and are subscribed to the 
> project ppms and dev lists.

This is much simplier:
The Incubator PMC members that participate in the project are called Mentors.

Rationale:
- If you're not on the lists, you're not participating, so that part is
  redundant.
- If you're on the Sponsoring PMC and you're interested in building
  new project communities, join the damn Incubator.

> Other Incubator PMC and Sponsoring PMC members will subscribe and 
> eventually catch up on issues on these lists when/if the need arises.

This is self-evident, so I don't think we need to write it on the
"Incubation Policy" page. The Incubator PMC is ultimately responsible.
Feel free to bring any confusing or unresolved issues to the pmc@i.a.o
mailing list.

-aaron (I know this is a long email and a long thread, but I think we can
make a lot of this stuff simplier and more intuitive, and save everyone
else a lot of energy if we are more careful about the "policies" we set
up, particularly the verbosity of these "policies". Oh, and I hate red tape.)

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