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From: Nicola Ken Barozzi <nicolaken@apache.org>
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] PMC Vote to incubate Directory Project
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:04:31 +0200
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Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> On Friday, Sep 19, 2003, at 14:05 Europe/Rome, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> 
>> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>> ...
>>> the members came to consensus agreeing that project umbrellas are a 
>>> pain in the ass and a PMC should be as close as possible to the code 
>>> it develops, as to increase the ability to do proper legal oversight. 
>>> [note: this notion is in *strong* contrast with this virtual-PMC...
>>
>> It is not.
>>
>> Lenya is being incubated under the Cocoon PMC.
> 
> So we have two flavors of incubation, direct and indirect?

Probably you don't read my mails, because I explained this in detail on 
the Cocoon PMC list, after one of your rants on incubation.

>> The Chair of that PMC is the sponsor.
> 
> 
> Really? I thought I was the sponsor.

Really? Didn's see you there much :-P

>> What happened with the latest Xopus incident it was the Incubator 
>> Shepherd, not the Cocoon PMC that started cleaning stuff and 
>> addressing the issues.
> 
> Sorry, can't parse the above.
> 
>> So don't talk to me about virtual stuff, when the recent history shows 
>> that the Cocoon PMC, of which you are an important part, has been as 
>> virtual as ever, despite being given all the liberty possible in 
>> incubating Lenya.
> 
> please, Nicola, your defensiveness is useless here since I'm confronting 
> with the 'concept' of the incubation PMC not with the people that 
> compose it.

Well, I'm talking about facts instead, not mere "concepts". Facts show 
us that PMCs left on their own do not overlook an incubation process 
correctly.

> In the lenya case, oversight doesn't mean "error free operation". The 
> lenya people failed to comply to the advertising clause of one of their 
> included software. As you yourself wrote, it was merely a defect in the 
> build script that didn't copy the appropriate file in the distribution. 
> I wouldn't call this "virtual operation". 

Lack of involvment on the lenya mailing lists. I call that "virtual 
operation".

> As the answers to that thread 
> showed, oversight from Cocoon PMC members is continuous and prompt... 
> but this doesn't mean that we have to do the work for them... This 
> wouldn't scale.

I don't parse this.

>> You want to Incubate Lenya? You are free and *encouraged* to do so, 
>> nobody has prevented you or any other person on earth from doing it.
> 
> So why in hell do we need an incubator? for those projects that nobody 
> really cares about? or just to stamp a 'yes go on with that PMC but play 
> nicely' to all those who come with a proposal?
> 
> I don't understand: what is this incubator doing anyway if all the 
> projects are incubated somewhere else?

1 - votes the projects into Apache after check that all the nitty-gritty
     stuff has been taken care of
2 - serves as a central place to store incubation history and
     information
3 - serves as a place where to discuss incubation per se, where
     shepherds, sponsors and project members can confront
4 - serves as a place where to incubate TLP

In essence it's a box, not a club where only the greatest can rule 
<chuckle>.

>>> which, IMO, should be redesigned since it clearly creates more 
>>> beaurocracy than any good]
>>
>> The problem is that it has *not* created yet any beaurocracy.
> 
> Oh god, don't you realize that it could be that people don't complain to 
> you because you can get so defensive so fast?

I hear enough complaints here, thank you.

>> People complain about lack of rules, not because there are too many.
> 
> Really? who did?

Everyone. For example Berin Lautenbach and Ted Leung, but you can put 
basically anyone that asked us for something.

>> We have only one true rule, that we should vote for a project to be 
>> accepted fully at Apache, based on a simple checklist.
>>
>> If this is beaurocracy...
> 
> Ok, let's change the word so you don't get defensive: did the presence 
> of the incubator prevent issues or created them?

It has made issues that without it are simply ignored finally evident. 
As for other issues, they are usually created by people complaining here 
and not helping out.

> I vote for the second.

Then add some explanation to your vote please, because I don't see how 
the Incubator has created issues to Lenya.

Call me defensive, but I have never seen a project that has been under 
fire from flamers like this one in all my life.

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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