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From Greg Wilkins <>
Subject Re: Why solve a problem that doesn't exist?
Date Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:20:28 GMT

Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> Quoting Greg Wilkins <>:
>>However, open process is at least as important as open software.
> Agreed. But the ASF has just given a bad example on this (IMO).
> Following the discussions on Geronimo in the last days, my
> impression is that a lot of decisions (in particular architecture)
> has already made behind the scenes. I do not even know who took
> those decisions, or how they look like. I just read in some mails,
> that they are "soon to be published".
> Not that *I* am the one who could influence that, but there have been
> some prominent names expressing interest in Geronimo on this list,
> who could.

While some decisions have been made and some code is being written,
this is what is required to start the apache process.   Nothing that
has been decided or written has been fixed in stone and the process
exists to make changes.

>>The high attrition rate of significant contributors to the JBoss project
>>over the years indicates that at least for some there is a problem, that
>>hopefully the open process of apache will address.
> That's definitely a point. On the other hand, I still have mixed feelings.
> My impression is that the Apache side behaves very, well, formal. Right,
> there might be reasons for doing so, but the typical behaviour between
> various open source projects should be different, say friendly competing.

Well I also like the friendly model - but it does not always work,
personalities do clash, things fall apart, the center cannot hold,
democracy is the worst system except for all the other ones, etc. etc.

I think there is strength in diversity - there are lots of models out
there and people can try them all.   JBoss is being developed under
one model - which may suit some, but that should not prevent others
from trying other models.    While I have not worked under the
apache system before (and I'm sure I'm going to find aspects of it
very frustrating), I am very hopeful that the openess of the process
will be a big win for both the developers and users of OS J2EE.

> While I reject words like "controlling every popular, open-source,
> significant project", I still would prefer a public statement like
> "we have attempted to do this and that, but that failed because ...".

The history of the attempts, failures and otherwise is spread over many
public and private email repositories and fractured by many many different
view points - all of them biased to some degree or other.

I don't think it is productive to revisit the history of it all - the small
amount of it that has happened so far has already resulted in name calling

What is important, is that for various reasons and through foul means and
fair - a community of developers has been attracted to the ASF to attempt
a new project.  So let's look forward.

> And, very important, followed by a "We are still interested in discussions
> and open for exchange of ideas and possibly even sources, if license and
> copyright allows." What good does it, to close the doors?

We are still interested in discussions and open for exchange of ideas and
possibly even sources, if license and copyright allows.

(NB.  I am in no way able to say "we" on behalf of the ASF, but I do
know that the geronimo project would agree with this statement)


Greg Wilkins<>             Phone/fax: +44 7092063462
Mort Bay Consulting Australia and UK.

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