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From Cosma Colanicchia <cosma...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [FalconJx] Package down to Expression production; JSGoogEmiter prototype
Date Fri, 28 Dec 2012 12:04:29 GMT
I'm following the discussions about JS transcoding in the last weeks - I do
not feel skilled enough to contribute, but I'd like to thanks you all (and
Frank Wienberg in particular) for the detailed explanations - really
interesting stuff.


2012/12/28 Erik de Bruin <erik@ixsoftware.nl>

> Both solutions have been implemented in FalconJx, I'm moving on.
>
> EdB
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Frank Wienberg <frank@jangaroo.net>
> wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:33 PM, Erik de Bruin <erik@ixsoftware.nl>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Frank,
> >>
> >> I did read your blog, I'm not that stubborn ;-)
> >>
> >
> > Good to hear, I was beginning to suspect you are ;-)
> >
> >
> >> I think you're addressing an edge case (passing 'undefined') to make
> >> your point, but that is fine as it helps focus me on getting the
> >> optimal solution. I say optimal, not perfect, for a reason, which is:
> >>
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't get your point. Even if you think I discovered an edge
> > case that might not make such a big difference in practice, what speaks *
> > against* my solution?
> >
> >    - It resembles the original ActionScript semantics
> >    - It is easy to understand (look for the number of actual parameters,
> >    and if there are not enough of them, ...)
> >    - It is easy to generate and doesn't need any more generated code than
> >    your solution
> >    - It is more efficient than your solution
> >    - Mike already implemented it
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> As long as we're talking edge cases, I noticed your blog also invokes
> >> one to make it's point, namely using an untyped parameter. Your
> >> function signature is "insult(s = 'fool')". Only when the parameter
> >> you're setting a default for is untyped will it's value be
> >> 'undefined', which you are testing for in your blog. In all cases=
> >> where you declare a type for the parameter ("insult(s:String =
> >> 'fool')"), the value assigned to it when you pass 'undefined' is the
> >> initial for that type, i.e 'null' for String and Object, NaN for
> >> Number, 0 for int, false for Boolean, etc..
> >>
> >> I'm not sure how your solution provides for this? Mine doesn't either,
> >> mind you, but I gave up perfection for simplicity very early in this
> >> thread ;-)
> >>
> >
> > It does not. I consider this case another problem. That's why I used an
> > untyped parameter to demonstrate how ActionScript handles default
> parameter
> > values.
> >
> > In ActionScript, it is simply not allowed to stuff a wrong value into a
> > typed parameter or variable. And it is not allowed to leave out a
> required
> > (= non-optional) parameter.
> > However, there are some cases where implicit type conversion (coercion)
> > takes place. Your example of a parameter of type String that is passed
> > undefined is an example of coercion and has nothing to do with default
> > parameter values. It is the same as assigning undefined to a local
> variable
> > of type String: the variable is null afterwards. Only that the
> "assignment"
> > happens in the function call.
> > So far, we do not perform any type checking at run-time. Why? Because we
> > rely on the compiler refusing to compile in case of type errors. So we
> > wouldn't add any code inside the function that checks whether
> > parameter sactually contains a
> > String, because we expect the calling code to have been type-checked.
> > In the same sense, we should not add code inside the function to check
> for
> > undefined and then assign the initial value for the type (here: null),
> > because a variable of type String should never be undefined in the first
> > place. Instead, this coercion should be generated in the *calling* code!
> > Why? Because if 90% of the calling code can be statically proven to use
> the
> > correct type (ruling out the value undefined for a String), always doing
> a
> > dynamic check for undefined at run-time would be waste and inefficient.
> > Note that TypeScript, too, refrains from generating any JavaScript code
> > that does type checking; all type checking is done at compile time.
> > Coercion of a literal value like undefined to a String can simply be done
> > at compile time. However, in case of complex untyped values used as typed
> > values, we'd have to do type *coercions* at run-time. E.g. imagine we
> have
> > some veryComplicatedFunction():*, and an ActionScript expression of
> > foo(veryComplicatedFunction()), we'd have to translate it to
> > foo(coerceToString(veryComplicatedFunction())).
> > If we plan to implement type coercions like in ActionScript (at least
> > somewhere in the future), here is another argument against checking a
> > parameter for undefined to assign its default value: once we have
> > implemented coercion, the function body would not "see" undefined, but
> null,
> > and could not distinguish it from a null explicitly given by the caller.
> > And handing in null for a String parameter with a default value of
> 'foo', I
> > dare say, is no longer an edge case and thus should behave like in "real"
> > ActionScript. Using the arguments.length approach, the called function
> can
> > tell the difference and behave correctly.
> >
> > Last but not least, what about coercion if the function is called
> directly
> > from JavaScript? Well, then, we have a problem, anyway, because we also
> do
> > not type-check. We could either mimic ActionScript's ExternalInterface
> for
> > code meant to be called from JavaScript and add type checking and
> coercion
> > code there (in a wrapper function), or live with possible errors at
> > run-time for a simpler and more efficient solution.
> >
> > Sorry I had to say all that, please please nobody cite XKCD's "someone's
> > wrong on the internet" again! ;-)
> >
> > Greetings
> > -Frank-
>
>
>
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
>
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
>
> T. 06-51952295
> I. www.ixsoftware.nl
>

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