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Subject: Re: Flex 5 in haxe
From: Hordur Thordarson <hordur@lausn.is>
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Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:30:27 +0000
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References: 
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To: flex-dev@incubator.apache.org

> if all says that HTML5 is not ready yet for RIA and enterprise apps =
that flex can do very well, why the hell would we try to render flex on =
HTML5 engine for=20

My question exactly, why the heck, when we have the best cross-platform =
UI lib out there with allready pretty darn good deployment options (from =
a technical/ubiquity perspective), do we want to go and turn our =
AS3/MXML code into HTML and JavaScript for running in the browser?  If =
the only thing that is gained by that is to get rid of the Adobe VM =
dependency then I say we're giving up much more than we are getting. =20

I'm using Flex and deploying to Flash player / AIR specifically so I =
don't have to deal with HTML/JS/CSS.  And someone please correct me if =
I'm wrong, but currently I have an excellent debugging experience for my =
Flex apps with FlashBuilder and Flash player, I can set breakpoints, =
step through my code etc, works like a charm.  If Flex is rewritten and =
the decision is made to compile to HTML/JS, as far as I can see, this =
experience has been downgraded significantly because now I have to debug =
generated HTML/JS code, not my own code.  This is the problem with =
cross-compilation.

Also, what would the experience be on the dev tools side ?  Currently we =
have Flash builder with a pretty nice, WYSIWYG GUI builder and as I =
said, a pretty nice compile-run-debug experience.  If Flex is ported to =
Haxe or some other language, we are back to square one as far as this is =
concerned.  If Flex sticks to AS3/MXML but then gets cross-compiled into =
HTML/JS, then as I said above, the code you run/debug will not be the =
actual code you wrote.  All sorts of new problems will follow.

I'm really hoping I'm wrong and way to pessimistic about all this, and =
will happily change my views on this if someone shows me some evidence =
that even though Flex is rewritten and the Adobe dependency ditched, we =
will not loose the nice dev experience that Flex has today.

I'm a Apple/Mac guy and have been since the days of the Apple II.  I've =
been programming for about as long.  And as such, I've often had the =
problem that I wanted to develop on my Mac but be able to deploy to =
Windows, or both.  Out of the countless number of frameworks and tools =
and programming languages that I've tried through the years, nothing at =
all matches the Flex/Flash player/AIR combo.  Nothing, period.  And I =
think we owe it to Flex to not just cut out most of what makes it great =
just to get rid of the Adobe dependency.  At the very least, if a =
totally new Flex is started, possibly with another programming language =
and deployment runtime, I would hope that there would also be an ongoing =
lobbying effort concerned with showing Adobe what a great use of Flash =
player and AIR the Flex framework is, because there is nothing seriously =
wrong with the Flex platform as it is, and like the man said, if it =
ain't broke, don't fix it :-)

On 17.11.2012, at 13:54, s=E9bastien Paturel wrote:

> i was in fact talking about enterprise app.
> it is already quite rapidly heavy perf consuming.
> if all says that HTML5 is not ready yet for RIA and enterprise apps =
that flex can do very well, why the hell would we try to render flex on =
HTML5 engine for native apps.
> I was talking about 3D rendering, in a starling sens, as a background =
rendering engine, not as application.
>=20
>=20
> Le 17/11/2012 14:25, Nils Dupont a =E9crit :
>> It really depends on which kind of application you want to deploy. I =
was
>> more thinking of common "entreprise" oriented applications, e.g. a =
few
>> views, with a few lists and a few forms. For 3D rendering I agree =
that it
>> is not the best way to go.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 2012/11/17 s=E9bastien Paturel <sebpatu.flex@gmail.com>
>>=20
>>> Does not cordova only launch a web browser wrapped in an native app?
>>> If so, its very bad result in terms of performances right?
>>> in a native app environement, we can leverage from 3D rendering (the =
best
>>> performances), but with cordova solution, we will use the lowest =
performant
>>> renderer available, the HTML5 renderer.
>>> it does not sound very promising to me, but maybe i'm wrong.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Le 17/11/2012 14:14, Nils Dupont a =E9crit :
>>>=20
>>>  Has anyone tried to make a bridge between Apache Flex and Apache =
Cordova?
>>>> I mean generating an Apache Cordova HTML5/JS application from a =
Flex
>>>> Mobile
>>>> MXML/AS3 application (at least for a subset of Flex Mobile =
components e.g.
>>>> views & transitions, lists, input controls, native APIs access, web
>>>> service
>>>> access, etc.)
>>>> Apache Cordova has the advantage to be able to target 7 different =
mobile
>>>> OS
>>>> and of course is open source.
>>>> For the UI controls, it is possible to use different librairies =
(JQuery
>>>> UI,
>>>> Twitter Bootstrap, etc.)
>>>> Maybe it is also an other way to consider in order to be able to =
deploy
>>>> Flex Mobile applications to mobile devices without
>>>> the use of Air runtime?
>>>> Nils
>>>> NB: Concerning desktop applications, Flash Player remains, in my =
opinion,
>>>> the best way to deploy cross-browser applications.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> 2012/11/17 Maxime Cowez <maxime.cowez@gmail.com>
>>>>=20
>>>>    Are developers on this list still able to earn a living building =
new
>>>>> Flex apps, or are you maintaining old ones?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I was actually hired 9 months ago by my current company to set up =
a new
>>>>> Flex development branch, as they wanted a share of the market in =
that
>>>>> area.
>>>>> As such I am mainly creating new "enterprise" apps for government =
clients
>>>>> so I can take full advantage of Spark and don't have to worry =
about
>>>>> legacy
>>>>> too much. =46rom my experience in that short amount of time I can =
tell you
>>>>> this: we started by creating small(-ish), fairly risc-free =
projects,
>>>>> which
>>>>> we could deliver with very good quality and on time even though on =
a
>>>>> tight
>>>>> deadline. Because of Flex's RAD (rapid application development)
>>>>> possibilities we were able to use prototypes to discuss =
functionality
>>>>> early
>>>>> in the development process. All of which lead to very satisfied
>>>>> customers,
>>>>> of which some were known to be "clients from hell". Bigger orders =
are
>>>>> rolling in as we speak.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I'd like to highlight one specific approach we took in selling =
Flex: a
>>>>> customer wanted us specifically to use Dojo as a technology. We =
took the
>>>>> risk to develop a small prototype in Flex and presented it to =
them. They
>>>>> saw immediately that the UX was far superior to what they were =
used to.
>>>>> And
>>>>> we told them we could *perhaps* deliver the same with Dojo, but it =
would
>>>>> cost them at least twice as much (which is a true estimate - not =
just for
>>>>> selling purposes - and we had just proven by delivering the =
prototype in
>>>>> no
>>>>> time). They did not have to think very long about it...
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We've been trying out various enterprise-level HMTL5/JS frameworks =
and
>>>>> the
>>>>> truth is, none of them comes even close to what Flex can do in =
terms of
>>>>> stability, possibilities, performance and most importantly (for =
the
>>>>> customer) development time. And yes I've included performance in =
that
>>>>> list:
>>>>> none of those enterprise-level frameworks have decent performance
>>>>> compared
>>>>> to Flex when presenting lots of data; I'm only speaking of classic
>>>>> web-applications here.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> @paul There's a team not far from my desk that's making a GIS =
application
>>>>> with GWT: the project is a total mess and we're loosing money on =
it.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> To sum it up: from my experience Flex as it is now still can be =
sold in
>>>>> markets that are not too sensitive to buzzwords.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Paul Hastings =
<paul.hastings@gmail.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Are developers on this list still able to earn a living building =
new
>>>>>> Flex
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> apps, or are you maintaining old ones?
>>>>>>>>  in our neck of the woods flex is still kind of king for old =
school
>>>>>> GIS
>>>>>> applications (analytical/decision support/etc.) especially w/ESRI
>>>>>>=20
>>>>> backends.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> mainly for desktops & some stripped down functionality for =
tablets--much
>>>>>>=20
>>>>> of
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> the processing is shared between client & backends.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> while i'm sure there are some big/complex JS/JTML5 apps for this =
market
>>>>>> somewhere, haven't actually seen any.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>=20