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From Greg Reddin <>
Subject Re: Make Git happen
Date Wed, 21 Nov 2012 19:43:51 GMT
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Alex Harui <> wrote:

> I've never used GitHub.  It doesn't have a way to monitor commits that
> couldn't send a notification to flex-commits@?

It may be possible. I'm not sure. What bothers me more than that is using
outside infrastructure to host development. I know I've seen that idea
frowned upon in the past, though I can't recall all the problems that were

Cyrill linked to the process used by Cordova. I don't know how much the
Cordova mentors have been involved in defining that process nor how much
the Incubator PMC or Apache Board have been involved in it. If that process
has been blessed by some people here at the ASF then perhaps it would work
for us.

> But I have been trying to understand how
> much of the Apache Way is tied to Infra.  As you know, I've been
> complaining
> about centralized Infra for the whole time we've been in incubation.

Yes, and I don't necessarily disagree with you on that. I've watched all
the discussions and tried to understand both sides. I think the Apache Way
is tied to infra to the extent that Apache believes certain things need to
be hosted within the org's infrastructure to be able to ensure proper legal
provenance. I've always thought source control was one of those things.
I've also assumed that meant source control for development, not just
releases. We want to know where the code came from. We want to know that it
was committed by someone with a proper CLA and we want to know that that
person had the appropriate rights to be able to commit it.

Honestly, I'm not sure whether we can get that provenance from a github
workflow or not. I know that in my watching of discussions on the
board@and members@lists that there have been some serious concerns
raised about doing that
type of thing. That's why I'm a bit surprised to find Cordova's workflow
making use of github like they are and I'd be very interested in knowing
whether their process has the "blessing" of the ASF or if they've somehow
managed to escape notice.

So what are really the minimum requirements of the Apache Way?  For sure the
> mailing lists and voting and the processes for earning committer-hood.  And
> that source code for releases and release packages are on Apache hardware.

I've actually thought the requirements for earning committer-hood had some
flexibility. I know I've been part of multiple projects that have handled
that different ways. But as I understand it, source code for releases
doesn't go far enough. We need to host the source code for development as
well. I don't think anyone has a problem with accepting patches from
github, but my interpretation is that the org really doesn't want
committers to be doing large amounts of development "offsite" and bring it
in that way. Again, this is my interpretation of the discussions I've seen.
I could be completely wrong. Perhaps someone could create a workflow for us
(somewhat like Cordova's) and we could bring it to general@ for discussion.
That would be the best way to learn what sorts of things are acceptable and
frowned upon. But we'd also need to be prepared to interpret conflicting
opinions and make our own way at the end of it.

> But I'd
> appreciate your thoughts on how to approach Infra and/or how to help Apache
> change.

Infra's a hard group to break into. Some of that I understand as their
responsibility is quite huge. And quite honestly, I've learned quite a bit
about network security and software quality, etc. from watching their
discussions. But some of it also has to do with the personalities of those
involved. It's hard fro me to know where to "kick against the goads" or go
with the flow. If I had time to really contribute to infra maybe I could
have more of a voice. Unfortunately, my involvement at Apache is wide and
shallow and I've been trying to figure out how to make it narrower and

So change happens at the board and members level. I can guarantee you that
once we become a TLP some members of our PMC will be nominated for
membership and then our group will have a greater voice. That's why I say
it wont' happen overnight, so my best advice, given what we know now, is to
try hard to get work done with the tools and infra we have now -- prove
ourselves, then we can go about trying to promote change.


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