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From Hordur Thordarson <hor...@lausn.is>
Subject Re: Flex 5 in haxe
Date Sat, 17 Nov 2012 16:20:19 GMT
> If we have a solution like Haxe, we can debug in a local native output, and use the HTML/JS
output only as a release.

That to me is a recipe for problems, test/debug on one runtime, deploy to another one, you'll
get situations where smth works in testing/debug but doesn't or works differently in your
release build.  Not good.

> but if you take the fact that the plugin word is getting to an end


I don't agree with that.  Here's Adobe's roadmap on this:

"Adobe believes that the Flash runtimes are particularly and uniquely suited for two primary
use cases: creating and deploying rich, expressive games with console-quality graphics and
deploying premium video.  This shift in focus for Flash does not mean that existing content
will no longer run, or that Flash cannot be used for content other than gaming and premium
video. However, it does mean that when prioritizing future development and bug fixes, gaming
and premium video use cases will take priority."

That to me says that Flash player/AIR aren't going away, quite the opposite in fact as Flash
player/AIR (for mobile) are core components of Adobe's new gaming strategy for building a
business on top of Flash.

> but you don't get it anymore in the next flash builder versions, because of the Adobe's
strategy shift.

Do we know this for sure ?  I've not read anything that tells me this.  And frankly, I can't
see how Adobe is going to monetize Flash without top-notch dev tools.  Indeed, their roadmap
says this:

"The Flash runtimes provide a number of key advantages and differentiators as a gaming platform,
including the following: .... World-class creative and developer tooling including Adobe Flash
Builder, Adobe Flash Professional, Adobe Photoshop, and Adobe Illustrator".

But maybe I'm reading all this wrong or maybe I'm believing too much what I think I'm reading
or maybe the people here advocating a HTML/JS strategy for Flex have been burned more by Adobe
than I have.


On 17.11.2012, at 14:47, sébastien Paturel wrote:

> Why? as we said it before, its only to get rid of Adobe's runtime for the long term future
of flex.
> The last year should have convinced you thats its too dangerous to be so dependant to
Adobes decisions.
> And no one wants to turn the AS3/MXML code to HTML/JS.  its only an alternative as a
runtime. You would still use the same AS3, the same Flash builder.
> If we have a solution like Haxe, we can debug in a local native output, and use the HTML/JS
output only as a release.
> 
> "Flash builder with a pretty nice, WYSIWYG GUI builder"
> but you don't get it anymore in the next flash builder versions, because of the Adobe's
strategy shift.
> 
> "the code you run/debug will not be the actual code you wrote"
> but if you take the fact that the plugin word is getting to an end, theres not much choices
left. and you have to rely on a new layer which will replace the plugin.
> 
> "like the man said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
> Again, the flex future is broken, and we have to fix it.
> 
> Le 17/11/2012 15:30, Hordur Thordarson a écrit :
>>> if all says that HTML5 is not ready yet for RIA and enterprise apps that flex
can do very well, why the hell would we try to render flex on HTML5 engine for
>> My question exactly, why the heck, when we have the best cross-platform UI lib out
there with allready pretty darn good deployment options (from a technical/ubiquity perspective),
do we want to go and turn our AS3/MXML code into HTML and JavaScript for running in the browser?
 If the only thing that is gained by that is to get rid of the Adobe VM dependency then I
say we're giving up much more than we are getting.
>> 
>> I'm using Flex and deploying to Flash player / AIR specifically so I don't have to
deal with HTML/JS/CSS.  And someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but currently I have an
excellent debugging experience for my Flex apps with FlashBuilder and Flash player, I can
set breakpoints, step through my code etc, works like a charm.  If Flex is rewritten and the
decision is made to compile to HTML/JS, as far as I can see, this experience has been downgraded
significantly because now I have to debug generated HTML/JS code, not my own code.  This is
the problem with cross-compilation.
>> 
>> Also, what would the experience be on the dev tools side ?  Currently we have Flash
builder with a pretty nice, WYSIWYG GUI builder and as I said, a pretty nice compile-run-debug
experience.  If Flex is ported to Haxe or some other language, we are back to square one as
far as this is concerned.  If Flex sticks to AS3/MXML but then gets cross-compiled into HTML/JS,
then as I said above, the code you run/debug will not be the actual code you wrote.  All sorts
of new problems will follow.
>> 
>> I'm really hoping I'm wrong and way to pessimistic about all this, and will happily
change my views on this if someone shows me some evidence that even though Flex is rewritten
and the Adobe dependency ditched, we will not loose the nice dev experience that Flex has
today.
>> 
>> I'm a Apple/Mac guy and have been since the days of the Apple II.  I've been programming
for about as long.  And as such, I've often had the problem that I wanted to develop on my
Mac but be able to deploy to Windows, or both.  Out of the countless number of frameworks
and tools and programming languages that I've tried through the years, nothing at all matches
the Flex/Flash player/AIR combo.  Nothing, period.  And I think we owe it to Flex to not just
cut out most of what makes it great just to get rid of the Adobe dependency.  At the very
least, if a totally new Flex is started, possibly with another programming language and deployment
runtime, I would hope that there would also be an ongoing lobbying effort concerned with showing
Adobe what a great use of Flash player and AIR the Flex framework is, because there is nothing
seriously wrong with the Flex platform as it is, and like the man said, if it ain't broke,
don't fix it :-)
>> 
>> On 17.11.2012, at 13:54, sébastien Paturel wrote:
>> 
>>> i was in fact talking about enterprise app.
>>> it is already quite rapidly heavy perf consuming.
>>> if all says that HTML5 is not ready yet for RIA and enterprise apps that flex
can do very well, why the hell would we try to render flex on HTML5 engine for native apps.
>>> I was talking about 3D rendering, in a starling sens, as a background rendering
engine, not as application.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Le 17/11/2012 14:25, Nils Dupont a écrit :
>>>> It really depends on which kind of application you want to deploy. I was
>>>> more thinking of common "entreprise" oriented applications, e.g. a few
>>>> views, with a few lists and a few forms. For 3D rendering I agree that it
>>>> is not the best way to go.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 2012/11/17 sébastien Paturel <sebpatu.flex@gmail.com>
>>>> 
>>>>> Does not cordova only launch a web browser wrapped in an native app?
>>>>> If so, its very bad result in terms of performances right?
>>>>> in a native app environement, we can leverage from 3D rendering (the
best
>>>>> performances), but with cordova solution, we will use the lowest performant
>>>>> renderer available, the HTML5 renderer.
>>>>> it does not sound very promising to me, but maybe i'm wrong.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Le 17/11/2012 14:14, Nils Dupont a écrit :
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Has anyone tried to make a bridge between Apache Flex and Apache Cordova?
>>>>>> I mean generating an Apache Cordova HTML5/JS application from a Flex
>>>>>> Mobile
>>>>>> MXML/AS3 application (at least for a subset of Flex Mobile components
e.g.
>>>>>> views & transitions, lists, input controls, native APIs access,
web
>>>>>> service
>>>>>> access, etc.)
>>>>>> Apache Cordova has the advantage to be able to target 7 different
mobile
>>>>>> OS
>>>>>> and of course is open source.
>>>>>> For the UI controls, it is possible to use different librairies (JQuery
>>>>>> UI,
>>>>>> Twitter Bootstrap, etc.)
>>>>>> Maybe it is also an other way to consider in order to be able to
deploy
>>>>>> Flex Mobile applications to mobile devices without
>>>>>> the use of Air runtime?
>>>>>> Nils
>>>>>> NB: Concerning desktop applications, Flash Player remains, in my
opinion,
>>>>>> the best way to deploy cross-browser applications.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 2012/11/17 Maxime Cowez <maxime.cowez@gmail.com>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>    Are developers on this list still able to earn a living building
new
>>>>>>> Flex apps, or are you maintaining old ones?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I was actually hired 9 months ago by my current company to set
up a new
>>>>>>> Flex development branch, as they wanted a share of the market
in that
>>>>>>> area.
>>>>>>> As such I am mainly creating new "enterprise" apps for government
clients
>>>>>>> so I can take full advantage of Spark and don't have to worry
about
>>>>>>> legacy
>>>>>>> too much. From my experience in that short amount of time I can
tell you
>>>>>>> this: we started by creating small(-ish), fairly risc-free projects,
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> we could deliver with very good quality and on time even though
on a
>>>>>>> tight
>>>>>>> deadline. Because of Flex's RAD (rapid application development)
>>>>>>> possibilities we were able to use prototypes to discuss functionality
>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>> in the development process. All of which lead to very satisfied
>>>>>>> customers,
>>>>>>> of which some were known to be "clients from hell". Bigger orders
are
>>>>>>> rolling in as we speak.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I'd like to highlight one specific approach we took in selling
Flex: a
>>>>>>> customer wanted us specifically to use Dojo as a technology.
We took the
>>>>>>> risk to develop a small prototype in Flex and presented it to
them. They
>>>>>>> saw immediately that the UX was far superior to what they were
used to.
>>>>>>> And
>>>>>>> we told them we could *perhaps* deliver the same with Dojo, but
it would
>>>>>>> cost them at least twice as much (which is a true estimate -
not just for
>>>>>>> selling purposes - and we had just proven by delivering the prototype
in
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> time). They did not have to think very long about it...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We've been trying out various enterprise-level HMTL5/JS frameworks
and
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> truth is, none of them comes even close to what Flex can do in
terms of
>>>>>>> stability, possibilities, performance and most importantly (for
the
>>>>>>> customer) development time. And yes I've included performance
in that
>>>>>>> list:
>>>>>>> none of those enterprise-level frameworks have decent performance
>>>>>>> compared
>>>>>>> to Flex when presenting lots of data; I'm only speaking of classic
>>>>>>> web-applications here.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> @paul There's a team not far from my desk that's making a GIS
application
>>>>>>> with GWT: the project is a total mess and we're loosing money
on it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To sum it up: from my experience Flex as it is now still can
be sold in
>>>>>>> markets that are not too sensitive to buzzwords.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Paul Hastings <paul.hastings@gmail.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Are developers on this list still able to earn a living building
new
>>>>>>>> Flex
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> apps, or are you maintaining old ones?
>>>>>>>>>>  in our neck of the woods flex is still kind of king
for old school
>>>>>>>> GIS
>>>>>>>> applications (analytical/decision support/etc.) especially
w/ESRI
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> backends.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> mainly for desktops & some stripped down functionality
for tablets--much
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> the processing is shared between client & backends.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> while i'm sure there are some big/complex JS/JTML5 apps for
this market
>>>>>>>> somewhere, haven't actually seen any.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
> 
> 


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