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From Carlos Rovira <>
Subject Re: Is Apache model killing this project?
Date Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:02:22 GMT

in the first point I think I was misunderstood. What I can see is that
I can't help in INFRA things due to the fact that Apache organization
is not prepared and I can't access the level to put work there. I only
can contribute with patches to the flex project code (as I did). But
as months pass my vision is that Apache is not interested in support
Git nor Github and individuals can't make it happen without a level of
commitment that would be prohibitive. You would need to dedicate your
life to make this happen and even in that situation you can't ensure
that would happen in the end...

Talking about the sensation of "Ghost Town": I think it could be
removed if people investing time could talk more about what is doing,
contributing to the overall feeling that the project is moving

This could make people (knowing what things are rolling) trying to
contribute to that efforts.

Right now I don't know what people are doing...What is doing Alex?
Carol? Peter? Gordon? Michael? Om? Omar? You? and so on.... if people
could see some page where actual efforts were listed, people could
adhere to the cause...but what is currently needed? what plans are
driven actualy? plans that really have opportunities to reach a decent
level of completion? There's so much missinformation (I say this from
the point of view of someone that is following the project so close).
i.e. I recently know that almost 100% of mustella are working, there
was no announcement here...or maybe I miss that mail

2012/10/18 Erik de Bruin <>:
> Carlos,
> You make some valid points, but also some that come from frustration, not fact:
>> * Apache is prepared only to accept patches. People like me can't help
>> nothing with infrastructure or GIT things until we don't reach the
>> committer status.
> Why can't you help? Sure, you can't help on your own until you become
> a committer, but I'm sure you can find a committer to work with
> getting your ideas implemented. I for one would certainly be willing
> to help out. As an example: when I started working on the Installer, I
> could only submit patches as well. So I started working with a
> committer (Om) and after some startup issues, we got a lot of work
> done together. And guess what? The PPMC noticed and decided to make me
> a committer as well... There is a lesson in there somewhere ;-)
>> * This project does not work like others because is half million files
>> with lots of knowledge to know to get to be productive. Other projects
>> barrier is lower since it only requieres a know a technology
>> (i.e:java) and the goals are more moderated.
> Small steps, take one JIRA ticket and work from there. It's
> unrealistic to expect you (anyone!) can come to a codebase as large as
> this one and expect to implement structural changes right away. It is
> also unrealistic to expect a project that is just underway to
> immediately start action of that magnitude. First of all, the basis
> has  to be solid, hence the work on Mustella before anything is done
> to the framework itself. You were helping with that, which was very
> much appreciated!
>> * Here we have frameworks, compilers, and so on...without organization
>> is impossible (is what Michael states that he alone can't do nothing).
>> While apache way is for individuals to contribute individual things.
> Individual can fix JIRA tickets, supply patches. Individuals working
> together can get bigger stuff done (Installer) and I'm sure groups
> working together can get all the major goals done. But it starts with
> individuals actively contributing and doing (some of) the grunt work.
>> * I'm with Michael that this is a ghost town since very few committers
>> from the initial setup are active. Others although love flex are in
>> actual wars with HTML5, so we shouldn't expect to see it come back.
> I disagree. Do you have number to support this? My gut feeling is that
> there are more people actively contributing code/patches now then at
> the start of the project.
>> * Regarding SVN. We were working with SVN (not GIT) while submitting
>> patches to mustella. Only we used github to share the patches/pull
>> request. But something that could be more agile was a pain and make us
>> to throw the towel....that is very - very - very - bad...can't express
>> what kind of damage make to this project such procedure...the real
>> thing is that we talked to come back as Git and Github was setup...but
>> taking into account that Apache infra needs some python guy that's a
>> dead lock.
> JIRA is much more suited to take SVN patches and keeps the process
> documented at the same time. Once the Git infrastructure is in place,
> that may change, I'm not familiar with the Git workflow yet. But for
> now, work with what works and contribute to the development of the
> code. The rest is tools and tools are interchangeable. Choose the tool
> that works and get work done ;-)
>> Erik, I'm a bit of frustrating, but in the end I'm solving my problems
>> at my company level, so can't live with this situation. But is a shame
>> that the apache community and the apache way is making this project a
>> ghost town (IMHO), while if we work in a for in github this could be
>> really going up.
> I disagree with (and feel a little hurt by) the ghost town remarks.
> Using a different version control system will not change anything if
> people are not willing to contribute. And if you're willing to
> contribute, having to use a different version control system shouldn't
> be a hurdle. We're all developers, aren't we, used to working with a
> variety of tools?
>> One thing is for sure...or this trend change, or flex will be dead in
>> few months.
> Well, I would love it if you would be the one to break this trend you
> see, and re-start your contributions to Mustella (or any aspect of the
> project). As I said, I would love to work with you to make the process
> of contributing your patches as smooth as possible.
> EdB
> --
> Ix Multimedia Software
> Jan Luykenstraat 27
> 3521 VB Utrecht
> T. 06-51952295
> I.

Carlos Rovira
Director de Tecnología
M: +34 607 22 60 05
F:  +34 912 35 57 77
Avd. del General Perón, 32
Planta 10, Puertas P-Q
28020 Madrid

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