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From Erik de Bruin <>
Subject Re: Is Apache model killing this project?
Date Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:43:59 GMT

You make some valid points, but also some that come from frustration, not fact:

> * Apache is prepared only to accept patches. People like me can't help
> nothing with infrastructure or GIT things until we don't reach the
> committer status.

Why can't you help? Sure, you can't help on your own until you become
a committer, but I'm sure you can find a committer to work with
getting your ideas implemented. I for one would certainly be willing
to help out. As an example: when I started working on the Installer, I
could only submit patches as well. So I started working with a
committer (Om) and after some startup issues, we got a lot of work
done together. And guess what? The PPMC noticed and decided to make me
a committer as well... There is a lesson in there somewhere ;-)

> * This project does not work like others because is half million files
> with lots of knowledge to know to get to be productive. Other projects
> barrier is lower since it only requieres a know a technology
> (i.e:java) and the goals are more moderated.

Small steps, take one JIRA ticket and work from there. It's
unrealistic to expect you (anyone!) can come to a codebase as large as
this one and expect to implement structural changes right away. It is
also unrealistic to expect a project that is just underway to
immediately start action of that magnitude. First of all, the basis
has  to be solid, hence the work on Mustella before anything is done
to the framework itself. You were helping with that, which was very
much appreciated!

> * Here we have frameworks, compilers, and so on...without organization
> is impossible (is what Michael states that he alone can't do nothing).
> While apache way is for individuals to contribute individual things.

Individual can fix JIRA tickets, supply patches. Individuals working
together can get bigger stuff done (Installer) and I'm sure groups
working together can get all the major goals done. But it starts with
individuals actively contributing and doing (some of) the grunt work.

> * I'm with Michael that this is a ghost town since very few committers
> from the initial setup are active. Others although love flex are in
> actual wars with HTML5, so we shouldn't expect to see it come back.

I disagree. Do you have number to support this? My gut feeling is that
there are more people actively contributing code/patches now then at
the start of the project.

> * Regarding SVN. We were working with SVN (not GIT) while submitting
> patches to mustella. Only we used github to share the patches/pull
> request. But something that could be more agile was a pain and make us
> to throw the towel....that is very - very - very - bad...can't express
> what kind of damage make to this project such procedure...the real
> thing is that we talked to come back as Git and Github was setup...but
> taking into account that Apache infra needs some python guy that's a
> dead lock.

JIRA is much more suited to take SVN patches and keeps the process
documented at the same time. Once the Git infrastructure is in place,
that may change, I'm not familiar with the Git workflow yet. But for
now, work with what works and contribute to the development of the
code. The rest is tools and tools are interchangeable. Choose the tool
that works and get work done ;-)

> Erik, I'm a bit of frustrating, but in the end I'm solving my problems
> at my company level, so can't live with this situation. But is a shame
> that the apache community and the apache way is making this project a
> ghost town (IMHO), while if we work in a for in github this could be
> really going up.

I disagree with (and feel a little hurt by) the ghost town remarks.
Using a different version control system will not change anything if
people are not willing to contribute. And if you're willing to
contribute, having to use a different version control system shouldn't
be a hurdle. We're all developers, aren't we, used to working with a
variety of tools?

> One thing is for sure...or this trend change, or flex will be dead in
> few months.

Well, I would love it if you would be the one to break this trend you
see, and re-start your contributions to Mustella (or any aspect of the
project). As I said, I would love to work with you to make the process
of contributing your patches as smooth as possible.


Ix Multimedia Software

Jan Luykenstraat 27
3521 VB Utrecht

T. 06-51952295

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