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From "Michael A. Labriola" <labri...@digitalprimates.net>
Subject RE: Starting with the Whiteboard Code
Date Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:39:51 GMT
>>I would argue that approachability for newbies is what has made HTML/JS so popular.
 I think we need popularity in order to get buzz that opens opportunities for new work and
ensures community longevity.  A >>smaller community of high-end specialists have an
uphill battle to fight for mindshare.  But for sure, we need to make sure you can do really
advanced things as well.

I would argue its ubiquity. I don't know any advanced developer that is excited about HTML/JS
as a language. Those of us excited about it are excited by its ubiquity and the capabilities
of the VM, not the language.

>>To me, a newbie will quickly become intermediate-level because he/she doesn't have
to learn about AOP and other advanced topics, and then will need to debug an app (with a debugger,
not trace statements).  >>I've yet to ship anything without having to debug into it,
and I think it is important to be able to understand the application behavior.  Productivity
is a strong-suit of Flex, especially for intermediates.

I have spent the last 8 years of my life teaching and trying to get companies to adopt Flex.
I saw it as a revolving door where people came in and left. Although Adobe willfully ignored
it, we already had a huge problem converting someone new to intermediate. In my experience,
our retention rate was around 15% of people who started and we had huge problems making the
senior architects and developers in a company want to work with this framework. That in turn
made it difficult to ever get adoption throughout.

>>Agreed, but IMHO, it has to be simple not only so it can be understood by newbies
and intermediates (and me), but also so it can be shippable.  Spark was a better architecture
than MX, but the fact is, it took too >>long to create components in Spark.

Yep, that's why I think evolutionary change is better than revolutionary change right now

>>My goal in these discussions is not to try to kill these ideas, mainly to point out
the counter-arguments and explain some history.  I am all for radical change, I'm planning
a full re-write as you know.

Mine too :) You have history from the Adobe engineering side. I have a lot of history from
the companies that chose *not* to use it. That did one project and then dropped it. The failed
projects. The developers who found it unworkable and unscalable.

>>I still believe we are working with a constrained environment and techniques you might
find in Java can't be universally implemented in AS.

Agreed, but concepts don't necessarily apply to one language. Their implementation pattern
might. Things need to be discussed through an understanding of ActionScript but simply ignoring
those possibilities as they are foreign is silly too. Sometimes a problem has been solved
well.

Mike

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