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From Vassil Dichev <vdic...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Clowns running the show, isn't that nice?
Date Sun, 10 Jan 2010 20:42:41 GMT
Hi Bertrand,

Quoting parts of 140 character messages is definitely losing a lot of
context, so let me explain.

First of all let me say that I don't have complaints against you or
Daniel. I especially appreciate your attempt to resolve problems in a
rational way since "we probably all have better things to do than
argue about such things" (with Bertrand's permission, I'm quoting him
and hope I'm not misrepresenting him)

I also do not always agree with David's personal opinions and if they
weren't brought to the esme-dev mailing list last time, a flame war
could have been avoided.

This time, though, I think a certain mentor's reply was more
inflammatory and the options suggested were disappointing. ESME could
go on without David. But David's initial code contribution and design
is in the heart of ESME so much so that it's inseparable. Removing
David's contribution would mean starting from scratch. So I was
surprised that a mentor would suggest that splitting ESME right before
the release is a better course of action than an educated discussion.

I'd also say that my message is no more sneaky than Gianugo's email to
the private list. My Twitter timeline is public and I know Bertrand is
following me. By contrast, at the time of Gianugo's reply I wasn't on
the private list.

I do not believe the ESME team needs special handholding to improve
and evolve the project. I think we have proven this during the course
of the last year. There are regular commits and discussions, this
means our motivation is strong enough. But I believe there are other
things to try first before suggesting blocking the release and
removing the project founder's code.

Everyone is a volunteer and everyone is human- not only the mentors.
I, for one, barely have enough time to think about ESME's technical
challenges without getting into legal ones as well. I also have to
admit my tweets could be more diplomatic after a sleepless night with
a sick kid. However, none of us are here for fun, so I would be happy
to apologize if this can get the legal and personal issues resolved.


> Apologies to David as I just wrote him in a private message that I
> wasn't going to rehash the past, "including the clowns and jokers
> bit". But seeing others join his chorus makes me really angry, so
> here's some rehashing.
>
> For what purpose? Mostly venting I guess. Maybe to avoid just slamming
> the door and leaving for more fun activities.
>
> I've gotten my fair share of private messages about ESME in the last
> week, related to the discussion about removing copyright notices and
> to David's departure. That's usually a bad sign, as we expect as much
> as possible to be discussed on the project's public list, and the few
> issues that need privacy to be discussed on the esme-private PPMC
> list. I'll survive I guess, but that's no fun.
>
> I saw David's "clowns to the left, jokers to the right" tweet a few
> days ago (http://twitter.com/dpp/status/7530960461) as we where
> discussing the copyright notices issues on this list. Considering that
> he seems to be angry about ESME, Apache, mentors or all of that I
> didn't want to feed the troll. And maybe he was talking about
> something else, right? Benefit of doubt etc.
>
> Now I see Vassil joining the chorus with "clowns running the show":
> http://twitter.com/vdichev/status/7587192641
>
> As a mentor who's trying to help ESME go forward despite some bumps in
> the road, I'm *very*" disappointed by those sneaky comments behind our
> backs.
>
> As I wrote on Twitter, I love circuses and clowns, but if the show is
> not fun I tend to leave early.
>
> Please remember that your incubation mentors are:
>
> a) volunteers.
>
> b) trying to help the project go forward, which includes coping with
> disagreement and some not fun at all discussions over not fun at all
> things at times. As a Swiss citizen I can't help comparing our job
> with Winkelried's [1] sometimes, and I don't mind being the "bad guy"
> sometimes when it comes to putting the project back on the ASF track.
>
> c) imperfect human beings.
>
> d) sometimes having to cope with podlings going south on a Sunday
> evening. Is that fun or what?
>
> And thanks to those of you ESME folks who have been collaborating in a
> constructive way for getting this project on track - you know who you
> are.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_von_Winkelried
>

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