From user-return-23113-apmail-couchdb-user-archive=couchdb.apache.org@couchdb.apache.org Fri Dec 14 22:35:27 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-couchdb-user-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-couchdb-user-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BFA83D191 for ; Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:35:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 68479 invoked by uid 500); 14 Dec 2012 22:35:26 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-couchdb-user-archive@couchdb.apache.org Received: (qmail 68448 invoked by uid 500); 14 Dec 2012 22:35:25 -0000 Mailing-List: contact user-help@couchdb.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: user@couchdb.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list user@couchdb.apache.org Received: (qmail 68440 invoked by uid 99); 14 Dec 2012 22:35:25 -0000 Received: from nike.apache.org (HELO nike.apache.org) (192.87.106.230) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:35:25 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (nike.apache.org: local policy) Received: from [128.18.84.132] (HELO brightmail-internal3.sri.com) (128.18.84.132) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:35:16 +0000 X-AuditID: 80125484-b7f396d000004ec0-26-50cba98d2016 Received: from exchange-hub01.SRI.COM (exchange-hub01.SRI.COM [128.18.23.153]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by brightmail-internal3.sri.com (SRI Internal SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id F4.BB.20160.D89ABC05; Fri, 14 Dec 2012 14:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from EXCHANGE-DB08.SRI.COM ([fe80::a11e:7c21:6886:9a20]) by exchange-hub01.SRI.COM ([2002:8012:1799::8012:1799]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Fri, 14 Dec 2012 14:34:50 -0800 From: Jim Klo To: "" Subject: Re: g+ community Thread-Topic: g+ community Thread-Index: AQHN1vjnneBmOUqSc0SNPQf4r7sEe5gS4v4AgAAGcYCABlKWAIAAMpoA Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2012 22:34:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1E58B7CD-E8B2-474D-AE65-E96A0FEE5F31@sri.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.12.16.226] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_190F3BAD-CD5F-452F-AC43-71F2BD852E95"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrAIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXSICQ+U7dv5ekAg5fXWS069+xlc2D02Pjh OGMAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxvbVD9gK7gRUnGrYxdrA2OTRxcjJISFgInF341J2CFtM4sK9 9WxdjFwcQgI7mSQeHTnCDuHsZpRovXiUFaSKTUBe4vD2B8wgtoiApcStBR9ZQGxhAUmJf1tv Q8WlJBYse8wGYbtJzL91kqmLkYODRUBVYsGpBJAwr4CVxPf2z6wQ8/8zSkw7tAxsPqeAo0Tj n+tgcxiBLvp+ag0TiM0sIC5x68l8JohLRSQeXjzNBmGLSrx8/I8VwlaUWNf0F+xoZoEpjBIH tt9kgdgmKHFy5hOWCYwis5DMmoWsbhaSOogibYllC18zQ9gGEk87X7FC2KYSr49+ZISwrSVm /DrIBmErSkzpfsi+gJFjFaNMUlFmekZJbmJmji4stoz1iosy9ZLzczcxguMtpGUH44pdhocY BTgYlXh4LU+rBAixJpYVV+YeYpTgYFYS4S2JOx0gxJuSWFmVWpQfX1Sak1p8iFGag0VJnDfM mN9fSCA9sSQ1OzW1ILUIJsvEwSnVwLhv7VJ3pUVqbYtqSisEOY3UtKdMDZzncq+CZeaJhiSP CXMr2RnkfO+rPLrkvTDVfdFS67M/A5xev3jhof3mSNGfyAsOG/f93nSj3zLa/FdXsdzUi3kn T5ZeVv5e6W1mzab2LX7u1LNSSZts+hZum/E6KbrG+P/jy2XL/lysecLiJxT8Mye4Wk6JpTgj 0VCLuag4EQDcaTedswIAAA== X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org --Apple-Mail=_190F3BAD-CD5F-452F-AC43-71F2BD852E95 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> IMHO the Google Groups wouldn't be any different than the apache list >=20 > Yes it would be. Google Groups has a number of advantages like >=20 > * The list archive is actually useable without having to click back = and forth through three levels of hierarchy to look at threads and = messages. It displays an entire thread of messages at once and strips = out redundant quoting. Compare the straight-out-of-1997 style of = with Google=92s = . > * You can choose to view on the web or by email or both. > * You can get a daily summary email that=92s IMHO much more useful = than a digest > * You can subscribe to individual threads by email without getting = every message from the list as an email. > * Better MIME support (the Apache listserv strips rich text, and = screws up formatting any time I send a message with an alternative = rich-text body.) Ironically, I started putting inline links into this = message before I remembered that they=92d only get lost if I posted them = here. > * I=92ll wager that the moderation support for admins is better. >=20 I won't argue you on this.. I don't know the full feature set of both to = be really able to distinguish the difference as mostly I use the email = interface for both. My primary concern would be about forking an = existing community, which to me is more valuable than some 'spit and = polish' on a user interface. Having a place where I can post 1 message = and get dozens of responses quickly is awesome. Moving to a new solution = would require all the existing membership to be migrated to the new = solution. You potentially lose the seasoned 'experts' out there that = aren't 100% engaged as they may have less motivation to subscribe to the = new solution. >=20 >> Google Groups is also somewhat painful to search - they can be = indexed w/ Markmail too. >=20 > Painful how? The web page of the group has a search field right at the = top. The results are pretty accurate in my experience, and you can = choose to view individual messages or just the thread list. >=20 It's not that the search isn't accurate, it's not very tunable to the = way I search=85 i.e. I search on some key words, find a couple of = relevant threads, then I want to expand to other threads that happened = around that time - in case my key words were off, as I often find there = are several related conversations that happen at the same time. Then = potentially I identify some specific posters that seem to have a certain = expertise and want to refocus the search - its possible to do, if you = know some of the many non-well documented features of Google search, = however I find just not agreeable to the way I like to search. Granted - = I'm probably the 1% that searches that way; I've just never really liked = Google's search for doing something like a faceted traversal. > Having some external unrelated index is not a good solution. I had no = idea that Markmail indexed this mailing list, nor do I know how to find = that index. I don=92t think it=92s mentioned anywhere that new members = are likely to see it =97 it=92s certainly not on the CouchDB home page = or the list archives page. >=20 Agreed=85 but it's actually better than nothing. And it does share some = of the not-so-well-documented syntactic sugar for queries that google = has, however I really like their methods of narrowing search. FWIW: here's all three lists http://goo.gl/K8EXh in one searchable = interface. If someone wanted to add this somewhere so it's more = discoverable=85 go for it. I don't know where a good place for it should = be. > Sorry for the rant, but I=92m a longtime social-software geek and I=92ve= been frustrated for decades by the glacially slow progress of mailing = list technology. This list we=92re on isn=92t really any better than = mid-=9180s Bitnet LISTSERVs except for the rudimentary web archive. Won't argue there=85 It's moved slowly I suspect because doing so = without forking the community isn't trivial=85 Which is why I think most = punt on moving to modern solutions for mailing lists. If there were a way to just 'migrate' this list to "Google Groups" and = retain the membership, archives, etc=85 I'm betting that would be a = highly coveted solution. Alas.. I don't think there's an easy way to do = that however.. I've seen a solution where you re-mail every message in = your archive to the new group in the same order they were received=85=20 With that I'll end my contributions on this subject=85 too much time on = non-CouchDB topics! - Jim --Apple-Mail=_190F3BAD-CD5F-452F-AC43-71F2BD852E95 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIJ/zCCBO0w ggRWoAMCAQICEBX3i1OyIZLyYjv7fwx/UYkwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwgdgxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVT MRowGAYDVQQKExFTUkkgSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbDEfMB0GA1UECxMWVmVyaVNpZ24gVHJ1c3QgTmV0 d29yazE7MDkGA1UECxMyVGVybXMgb2YgdXNlIGF0IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LnZlcmlzaWduLmNvbS9y cGEgKGMpMDIxMDAuBgNVBAsTJ0NsYXNzIDIgT25TaXRlIEluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3Vic2NyaWJlciBD QTEdMBsGA1UEAxMUU1JJIEludGVybmF0aW9uYWwgQ0EwHhcNMTIwMTAzMDAwMDAwWhcNMTMwMTAy MjM1OTU5WjCBwjEaMBgGA1UEChQRU1JJIEludGVybmF0aW9uYWwxKDAmBgNVBAsUH0luZm9ybWF0 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