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Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 13:07:40 +0200
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Subject: Re: Part2: What's up dev? About couchapps.
From: Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com>
To: dev@couchdb.apache.org
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On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> Your mail amuses me.
>
> In the first bit you say we have Futon as a CouchApp but no way to
> bootstrap it in the build.
>
> Then in your next bit you ask why we'd need Erica in the source. ;) ;) ;)

No I said some code based on. erica isn't needed. Basically we need to
load a couchapp from the fs to do that. or maybe just drop  an
generated db in which we could drop anything apps we want to support.
There are different way to bootstrap. In refuge I reused the erica
code because that was easy.

>
> If Erica is:
>
> * Dead simple, and
> * Lets you bootstrap CouchApps without any attendant fuss/framework, and
> * Could be used as a library or tool in big/more complex tools
>
> Then why not merge it in and make it official?

As the maintainer I would be honored and it would work. But I'm not
sure this is good for the ecosystem for the reasons I said

>
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Benoit Chesneau <bchesneau@gmail.com>wr=
ote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Noah Slater <nslater@tumbolia.org>
>> wrote:
>> > Making Futon a CouchApp would be a great first step.
>> >
>> > Other good first steps would be trashing couchapp.com and redirecting =
to
>> > c.a.o/couchapp like you say.
>> >
>> > Also, creating apps@couchdb.apache.org or similar, to indicate a more
>> > official, and broad, focus.
>> >
>> > If we made Futon a CouchApp, how would that work?
>>
>> Dale already did it if I remember. But we need a way to bootstrap it.
>> I've did it in refuge sometimes ago using part of erica code which is
>> in Erlang.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > I appreciate the diversity in CouchApp tools, but what I really want i=
s a
>> > dead simple way to do it without external tools.
>> >
>> > Maybe even if that's just a simplistic reference implementation of a
>> > CouchApp uploader that we ship.
>> >
>> > Something other tools could even hook into maybe?
>>
>> well on that purpose erica is dead simple and in erlang. But I don't
>> think we need it. A couchapp is basically design doc... What would do
>> this tool?
>>
>> >
>> > (We could then use this to bootstrap Futon from within the build.
>> Awesome!)
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Simon Metson <simon@cloudant.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hey Benoit, all,
>> >>
>> >> I agree that this isn't about tools. The tools themselves are simple,
>> and
>> >> the last change to CouchDB that effected CouchApps would be in 0.10.0=
.
>> >> While there are bugs, the tools are relatively stable and usable. I
>> think
>> >> diversity is good here.
>> >>
>> >> There's a lot of bad documentation (e.g. wrong) out there. Examples t=
hat
>> >> are out of date using code that is no longer supported. There seemed =
to
>> >> have been a perception for a while that a couchapp had to use evently=
,
>> for
>> >> instance, long after evently had ceased development. I'm not sure wha=
t
>> the
>> >> apache community can do to clean up those issues in the wider world
>> (aside
>> >> from notifying owners of broken examples) but we could certainly make
>> >> things clear on http://couchdb.apache.org and the wiki.
>> >>
>> >> If possible I would redirect couchapp.org into
>> >> http://couchdb.apache.org/couchapp or similar (as couchdb.org does) a=
nd
>> >> make that a landing page for building applications using CouchDB. Sim=
ple
>> >> examples in a bunch of languages using idiomatic code would be good.
>> >> Highlighting that a web app talking to CouchDB is a simple thing that
>> >> doesn't need masses of boiler plate code would be nice, too.
>> >>
>> >> Mongo got a bunch of press off the back of Meteor (
>> http://www.meteor.com/)
>> >> which isn't much more than what is already offered by CouchApps, just
>> >> better packaging (and some nice hot swappable code). If we want to
>> continue
>> >> down the road of "CouchDB as an application server" then eating our d=
og
>> >> food an making Futon a CouchApp would be a nice start.
>> >>
>> >> I'd be wary about decoupling the development of "app engine like
>> features"
>> >> from the database, though. There are features that impact on database
>> >> behaviour and need to be considered in the bigger picture. That said,=
 I
>> >> don't think I've seen any discussion of new features pertaining to co=
uch
>> >> apps for some time (and I'd like to!) and my initial objection depend=
s a
>> >> lot on what those app features are.
>> >>
>> >> The timeline/release schedule stuff that was discussed in Dublin seem=
s
>> >> like a good way to mitigate concerns about different pace between
>> database
>> >> development and app engine work, too.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >> Simon
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Monday, 24 September 2012 at 10:21, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Couchapps.
>> >> >
>> >> > This isn't about tools. I think what @nslater experienced is the la=
ck
>> of
>> >> > clear direction coming partly from frustration from some devs, and =
the
>> >> > need for some to act in competition with other tools. Today what is
>> the
>> >> > situation:
>> >> >
>> >> > - couchapp.org (http://couchapp.org) I ask since a long time to hav=
e
>> >> the control on this
>> >> > domain so I can put new doc (and not specific to couchapp the tool)=
 .
>> >> > Same for the irc channel.
>> >> > - couchapp ml even if we said long time ago that this is a generic =
ml,
>> >> > some think that this is the ml for the tool. Which isn't and never
>> >> > had. Anyone can speak on it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Also I wouldn't say that the concept is obscur or so. I can say tha=
t a
>> >> > lot around are using them quietly in their business. Without asking
>> for
>> >> > more.
>> >> >
>> >> > Clearly we need to provide more directions for people. But I would
>> like
>> >> > to keep the diversity in tools. Just like for clients. Let the user=
s
>> >> > choose but don't support one more than the other. This is why each
>> time
>> >> > it was discussed on the ml or during events the idea of adding a to=
ol
>> as
>> >> > a sub project was abandonned. But we should definitely provide more
>> help
>> >> to
>> >> > others. A good start would be linking them to the tools and their d=
oc
>> >> > if any. Then the users will choose.
>> >> >
>> >> > For me couchapp.org (http://couchapp.org) should be a website
>> defining
>> >> what is a couchapp ,
>> >> > how does it works (fundamuntal for shows, lists, ...) then link the
>> user
>> >> > to different tools. Each tools have their own usages. For users
>> >> > couchapp , erica as generic tools, kanso for those who want a
>> >> > specific framework, other frameworks around (there are some coming,
>> some
>> >> > private...) . Maybe it can also be arecipe place. We should link to
>> >> > tother when they speak about couchapps. I'm volounter for that.
>> >> >
>> >> > In summary let take the control back on couchapp.org (
>> >> http://couchapp.org), the ml and IRC and
>> >> > start to build a communauty feeded by different tools & experiences=
.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > As a couchdb developer perspective I also want to split the couchap=
p
>> >> > engine from the rest so we can improve it quietly and maybe have
>> >> > different release cycle too. The couchdb would still embed a stable
>> >> > version when it's released as well. It could defenitely speed the
>> >> > development and will help to includes more users' oriented features=
.
>> An
>> >> > app engine need to have a shorter release cycle compared to a datab=
ase
>> >> > obviously.
>> >> >
>> >> > Voil=E0,
>> >> >
>> >> > Hope This mail can launch the discussion and we can start to act. M=
ore
>> >> > important let's the energy come back.
>> >> >
>> >> > - beno=EEt
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > NS
>>
>
>
>
> --
> NS