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From "Geir Magnusson Jr." <g...@pobox.com>
Subject Re: Transactional _bulk_docs
Date Fri, 06 Feb 2009 13:03:01 GMT

On Feb 6, 2009, at 7:49 AM, Robert Dionne wrote:

> Thanks Jan,
>
>  good read. Now I know PMC is not related to PMS :)
>
>  It's interesting to know Apache was truly a collaborative project  
> from the beginning and this informs it's philosophy. So there are  
> all these roles and so forth, yet each PMC is allowed to make it's  
> own rules, within some guidelines.
>
>   I still think mailing list threads too unwieldy. For major design  
> changes it might be useful to post a one page summary on the WIKI,  
> as a strawman for the emails to focus on. Of course running code is  
> also an excellent design document.

All of those are good ways, IMO, some better than others :)

The key is that things are in the open, recorded, and done in a way  
that people with different participation profiles (e.g. not paid to  
work on it) or in different timezones have a chance to participate and  
voice an opinion before decisions are made.

geir

>
>
> regards,
>
> Bob
>
>
> Robert Dionne
> Chief Programmer
> dionne@dionne-associates.com
> 203.231.9961
>
>
>
> On Feb 5, 2009, at 9:11 AM, Jan Lehnardt wrote:
>
>>
>> On 5 Feb 2009, at 14:05, Robert Dionne wrote:
>>> I'm not very familiar with the ASF "process", excuse my ignorance,  
>>> but I find the IRC enormously useful and find mailing list threads  
>>> can be too unwieldy.
>>
>> Check out http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html for
>> more about The ASF Way/.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jan
>> --
>>
>>
>>> I guess it's because I'm not a fan of top down design. I see the  
>>> code itself as the design, and the debugging, reworking, and  
>>> documenting of the code as the construction phase.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Robert Dionne
>>> Chief Bittwiddler
>>> dionne@dionne-associates.com
>>> 203.231.9961
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2009, at 6:14 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>
>>>> [sending second time, as I see my first is stuck in moderation,  
>>>> and I want to reply in a timely manner]
>>>>
>>>> Sure, ideally.
>>>>
>>>> But you can't have "everyone" together at the same time on IRC,  
>>>> where at the ASF, we define "everyone" to be, well, "everyone",  
>>>> not you and the 4 others on the PMC.
>>>>
>>>> I see 579 people on the user list.  I see 294 people on the dev  
>>>> list.  Just focusing on the dev list, that's 290 people, or 98.6%  
>>>> of people supposedly interested in CouchDB development, that had  
>>>> zero opportunity to see, review and participate in the  
>>>> discussion.  Further, there's now zero chance that any future  
>>>> project participant can look back to understand design decision  
>>>> and philosophy.  No institutional memory.  Your goal, besides  
>>>> building a great software project, should be to get the community  
>>>> to the point where you can step back and do other things w/o  
>>>> material effect on the community, and that requires information  
>>>> like this to be somewhere accessible.
>>>>
>>>> And unlike Ted, I don't agree that a pointer to an IRC log is  
>>>> sufficient to represent a "done decision", and he may not have  
>>>> meant that anyway.  Sure, I can see a chat starting on IRC about  
>>>> a topic, but I'd hope that one person would force the move from  
>>>> IRC to the mail list - and at that point, maybe posting a pointer  
>>>> to the *initial* discussion log would be useful.  And after that,  
>>>> discussion is on the mail list.
>>>>
>>>> I think IRC logs are a very poor substitute to mail traffic (and  
>>>> yes, I grok the downside of async communications).  A primary one  
>>>> reason that they are very "in the moment" - if you are in the  
>>>> conversation, it's easy to stay in, but after, when things cool  
>>>> and the context of the moment isn't there, it's neigh  
>>>> impossible.  You also can't hit reply and quote a piece for  
>>>> others to see and discuss, further broadening the discussion.
>>>>
>>>> What got me engaged on this wasn't the decision itself (only  
>>>> because it was a secret decision), but -like Ted - the mode of  
>>>> operation.  It seemed that a very dedicated, engaged and  
>>>> interested community member had to privately petition the PMC for  
>>>> redress on a technical decision that none of us had any awareness  
>>>> of, nor a chance to review.  And IMO, from a guy that probably  
>>>> should be a committer and PMC member to boot!
>>>>
>>>> (By the way - from my count, not all PMC members are even on the  
>>>> PMC's private@ list, so I have *no clue* where project private  
>>>> discussion - like new committer candidates - are even  
>>>> discussed....)
>>>>
>>>> geir
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 5, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Damien Katz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ideally yes, but real time communication with everyone together  
>>>>> is damn useful.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Damien
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 5, 2009, at 2:07 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Uh, project decisions are supposed to be made in the public  
>>>>>> mailing lists...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 6:51 PM, Damien Katz wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This decision was discussed and made on IRC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Damien
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:26 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> can you point me to a reference to where the PMC made this
 
>>>>>>>> decision?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm interested in the subject for it's own sake, and I'm
also  
>>>>>>>> interested in figuring out where decisions are made in this
 
>>>>>>>> project, since I didn't see this one go by on a mail list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> geir
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 9:13 PM, Damien Katz wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Geir, there was a decision made by the PMCs to change
the  
>>>>>>>>> transaction model to support partitioned databases. It
is a  
>>>>>>>>> change I am currently working on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Damien
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 8:46 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> and original question #2?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> geir
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 4, 2009, at 8:38 PM, Antony Blakey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/02/2009, at 12:02 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr.
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) where is this being forwarded from ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I sent it to the PMC.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Antony Blakey
>>>>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>>> CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
>>>>>>>>>>> Ph: 0438 840 787
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A Buddhist walks up to a hot-dog stand and says,
"Make me  
>>>>>>>>>>> one with everything". He then pays the vendor
and asks for  
>>>>>>>>>>> change. The vendor says, "Change comes from within".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>


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