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From Ivan Pavlukhin <vololo...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Replacing default work dir from tmp to current dir
Date Thu, 03 Oct 2019 12:26:40 GMT
Pavel,

> Ivan, which vendors place files into current work dir, can you please give an example?

Cockroachdb stores files relative to current work dir (yes, "cd"
sensitive). As I understood aforementioned SQLite do the same [1].

> In this case users won't even be able to use Maven or NuGet, let's not consider those rare scenarios.

Cannot tell about NuGet. Maven is typically used during development,
usually there is no Maven in production deployments.

Folks, I believe we should definitely wait a reply from Ilya, as the
fix was not done blindly.

[1] https://www.sqlite.org/c3ref/data_directory.html

чт, 3 окт. 2019 г. в 14:19, Nikolay Izhikov <nizhikov@apache.org>:
>
> Alexey.
>
> > Ignite is widely used in embedded scenarios; the ability to process data
> > in-process locally is very powerful and I see no reason why we should
> > remove it
>
> I don't propose to remove something.
> I wrote about "same distribution".
>
> Seems, we should have different defaults and even distributions for different usage scenarios.
>
> > As an example,
> > both SQLite, and rocksdb are distributed as a library, so I see no issues
> > in Ignite server side being a library.
>
> As far as I know, both rocksdb and SQLite is local only libraries and don't have any distrubted features.
>
>
> >"current directory" as persistence directory is not consistent.
>
> I agree with you.
> How it happens, that after wide discussion we implemented, reviewed and merged wrong defaults?
>
> As I know, we have explicit release only to change this default.
>
> This release is broken, isn't it?
>
> В Чт, 03/10/2019 в 14:03 +0300, Alexey Goncharuk пишет:
> > Nikolay,
> >
> > Ignite is widely used in embedded scenarios; the ability to process data
> > in-process locally is very powerful and I see no reason why we should
> > remove it. I absolutely agree with Pavel T. on the subject. As an example,
> > both SQLite, and rocksdb are distributed as a library, so I see no issues
> > in Ignite server side being a library.
> >
> > As long as Ignite is available as a maven library, we should provide a
> > consistent node behavior; "current directory" as persistence directory is
> > not consistent.
> >
> > чт, 3 окт. 2019 г. в 13:52, Nikolay Izhikov <nizhikov@apache.org>:
> >
> > > Pavel.
> > >
> > > > As a user, why would I want to define a system-wide property just to use
> > > > some library?
> > >
> > > Why do you think Ignite is a library?
> > > May be the root of usability issues in using same distribution for a
> > > library and server side dbms?
> > >
> > >
> > > В Чт, 03/10/2019 в 13:40 +0300, Pavel Tupitsyn пишет:
> > > > Ivan, which vendors place files into current work dir, can you please
> > >
> > > give
> > > > an example?
> > > >
> > > > > Generally IGNITE_HOME should be defined
> > > >
> > > > This is an inconvenience for the users, bad usability.
> > > > As a user, why would I want to define a system-wide property just to use
> > > > some library?
> > > >
> > > > > As for .NET. Should not we define IGNITE_HOME for it?
> > > >
> > > > No, for the reasons stated above.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like everyone to pay more attention to Maven/NuGet distribution
> > > > scenario. Forget about zip archive for a while.
> > > > As a user, I add a dependency to Ignite package and call
> > >
> > > Ignition.start().
> > > > That's all, it should work right away, no env vars, no additional
> > > > configuration.
> > > > And current work dir should not matter, because different tools, IDEs and
> > > > workflows dictate different work directories.
> > > >
> > > > > user.home can be not writable as well
> > > >
> > > > In this case users won't even be able to use Maven or NuGet, let's not
> > > > consider those rare scenarios.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To summarize: home directory is the way to go as a default location.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 12:14 PM Ivan Pavlukhin <vololo100@gmail.com>
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As for .NET. Should not we define IGNITE_HOME for it?
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 3 окт. 2019 г. в 12:13, Ivan Pavlukhin <vololo100@gmail.com>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am with Ilya here. I remind that we are talking not about general
> > > > > > case for Ignite usage. Generally IGNITE_HOME should be defined.
> > > > > > Otherwise we fallback to a default, and user.dir usually points to a
> > > > > > directory where java launcher command was called (work dir).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > user.home seems to cause more surprises to me:
> > > > > > * user.home can be undefined for JVM;
> > > > > > * user.home can be not writable as well (e.g. some special service
> > >
> > > user).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And as far as know other vendors usually place files required for an
> > > > > > application in current work dir.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > чт, 3 окт. 2019 г. в 01:45, Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org>:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was always expecting this to be a user *home* directory that can
> > >
> > > be
> > > > > > > resolved in any operating system and will work for any language
> > > > >
> > > > > supported
> > > > > > > by Ignite. So, I'm with Pavel here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Alex G, what's your thinking? Sounds like we need to change this
> > >
> > > one
> > > > >
> > > > > more
> > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 12:17 PM Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > >
> > > ptupitsyn@apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Everyone above agreed to `~/ignite/work`, then somehow we jumped
> > >
> > > to
> > > > > > > > `user.dir/ignite/work`.
> > > > > > > > To me `user.dir` looked like synonym for ~, but turns out this is
> > > > >
> > > > > not true.
> > > > > > > > I think others may be confused in the same way.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Denis Magda, Alexey Goncharuk, and others - please confirm that
> > >
> > > you
> > > > > > > > understand that `user.dir` means current directory, not user home
> > > > > > > > directory.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In my opinion, this is very broken. Current work dir can be
> > >
> > > literally
> > > > > > > > anything, e.g.:
> > > > > > > > `cd / && ~/my-ignite-app/run.sh` will cause an attempt to create
> > > > >
> > > > > ignite dir
> > > > > > > > in system root, and so on.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 2, 2019 at 9:46 PM Ilya Kasnacheev <
> > > > >
> > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think this is a sensible default and it was certainly not
> > >
> > > chosen
> > > > >
> > > > > by
> > > > > > > > > mistake. It was intentional expectation that your project is
> > > > >
> > > > > started from
> > > > > > > > > project root and data is located under it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If this breaks .Net, I am deeply sorry.
> > > > > > > > > However, I think we should change .net to provide non-default
> > > > >
> > > > > workdir
> > > > > > > > > location when none is specified.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Can you please clarify scenarios that are broken now?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ср, 2 окт. 2019 г., 20:28 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupitsyn@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > :
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Looks like we made a mistake while implementing IGNITE-12057:
> > > > > > > > > > `user.dir` is NOT user home directory, it is where JVM has
> > >
> > > been
> > > > >
> > > > > started
> > > > > > > > > > from, which is rather arbitrary.
> > > > > > > > > > (Among other things this breaks Ignite.NET usage from tools
> > >
> > > like
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > LINQPad,
> > > > > > > > > > because `user.dir` ends up pointing to Program Files, which
> > >
> > > is
> > > > >
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > writable without elevation)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We should use `user.home` system property instead, see
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/environment/sysprop.html
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thoughts, objections?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:57 PM Ilya Kasnacheev <
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hello again!
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Please note that I have updated release notes for
> > >
> > > IGNITE-12057
> > > > >
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > > well
> > > > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > > added them for my ticket. Release Engineers, please make
> > >
> > > sure
> > > > >
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > include
> > > > > > > > > > > the latest one.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > Ilya Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > пн, 2 сент. 2019 г. в 13:33, Ilya Kasnacheev <
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have pushed an amended fix to both master and
> > >
> > > ignite-2.7.6.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ilya Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > пт, 30 авг. 2019 г. в 21:48, Denis Magda <
> > >
> > > dmagda@apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ilya,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I forgot to push "Send for review" button. You can see
> > >
> > > my
> > > > >
> > > > > minor
> > > > > > > > > > comment
> > > > > > > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 5:47 AM Ilya Kasnacheev <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Waiting for a minor comment from Denis, as soon as I
> > > > >
> > > > > see/fix it
> > > > > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to commit.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ilya.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ilya Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > пт, 30 авг. 2019 г. в 11:30, Alexey Goncharuk <
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > alexey.goncharuk@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Ilya,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just curious, when are you planning to commit your
> > > > >
> > > > > changes to
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2.7.6
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > branch?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 28 авг. 2019 г. в 04:57, Denis Magda <
> > > > >
> > > > > dmagda@apache.org>:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, seems like we came to a consensus. Let’s
> > >
> > > ensure
> > > > >
> > > > > that the
> > > > > > > > > > path
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > work dir is user.dir/ignite/work and restart the
> > >
> > > vote.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2019, Ilya Kasnacheev <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ilya.kasnacheev@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have took the liberty to implement the
> > >
> > > change to
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > existing
> > > > > > > > > > code
> > > > > > > > > > > > > base
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remove concern about work/ directory:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >
> > > https://github.com/apache/ignite/pull/6816/files
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some advocacy for this patch:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Minimal change.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Storing in user.dir/ignite/work (current
> > > > >
> > > > > directory, e.g.
> > > > > > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > root)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > which is consistent with behavior of unzipped
> > >
> > > binary
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > release.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - We can re-use user.dir/ignite for other uses
> > >
> > > in
> > > > >
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > future,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > such as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > storing logs there.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have to admit that my previous reaction to
> > >
> > > the
> > > > >
> > > > > change
> > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > too
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > strong.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > turned out the default was user.dir/work
> > >
> > > (project
> > > > >
> > > > > root)
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user.home/work (home dir with imminent Work
> > > > >
> > > > > collision).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevertheless, I think that after this change it
> > > > >
> > > > > would be
> > > > > > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last for a few years.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ilya Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 27 авг. 2019 г. в 18:28, Alexey Goncharuk <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > alexey.goncharuk@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the current state of the project, we
> > >
> > > cannot
> > > > >
> > > > > directly
> > > > > > > > > > > compare
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > setup process to the one of postgresql or
> > >
> > > another
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > database.
> > > > > > > > > > In
> > > > > > > > > > > > > many
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > examples, an embedded node (even with
> > > > >
> > > > > persistence) is
> > > > > > > > > > started
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > supposed to run without any additional FS
> > >
> > > rights
> > > > >
> > > > > grants
> > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > init
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > steps.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be changed in 3.0, but not in a
> > >
> > > maintenance
> > > > >
> > > > > release.
> > > > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > change the directory to /var/lib, I would
> > >
> > > rather
> > > > >
> > > > > fail
> > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > node
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > asking a user to explicitly provide work
> > > > >
> > > > > directory path.
> > > > > > > > > Let
> > > > > > > > > > > > > alone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /var/lib
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is not portable and I would not add an
> > >
> > > OS-switch
> > > > >
> > > > > to the
> > > > > > > > > code
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reason.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for storing the work in ~/ignite/work
> > >
> > > -
> > > > >
> > > > > agree
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > Ilya
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > large amounts of data in a hidden folder is
> > >
> > > a bad
> > > > >
> > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 27 авг. 2019 г. в 15:17, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that user home maybe not the best
> > >
> > > place
> > > > >
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > Linux
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > perspective
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophy, but  "user.home"/ignite/work
> > >
> > > is
> > > > >
> > > > > more or
> > > > > > > > > less
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > portable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For the Linux environment, we can add a
> > > > >
> > > > > suggestion
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > where to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > place
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > persisted data. For very first testing of
> > >
> > > Apache
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > > > > home
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > looks good for me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 27 авг. 2019 г. в 11:56, Pavel
> > >
> > > Pereslegin <
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > xxtern@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or instead of a WARNING, we can add a
> > > > >
> > > > > suggestion
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > recommendation
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for the production environment.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 27 авг. 2019 г. в 11:41, Petr Ivanov
> > >
> > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /opt is either does not exist on fresh
> > > > >
> > > > > system, or
> > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > same
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > restriction: no user access without admin
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > intervention.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /usr/local, /var/lib, etc. — all this
> > >
> > > is
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > implemented
> > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DEB /
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RPM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > packages already.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For ZIP installation %HOME% seems to
> > >
> > > be the
> > > > >
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "2-click"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > launch.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Later user can update preferences and
> > >
> > > set
> > > > >
> > > > > working
> > > > > > > > > dir
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > whatever
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directory he would like.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also — we can put WARNING message to
> > >
> > > log
> > > > >
> > > > > noting
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > WORK_DIR
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > set
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > default.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 27 Aug 2019, at 10:16, Zhenya
> > > > >
> > > > > Stanilovsky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <arzamas123@mail.ru.INVALID> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And what about /opt/ignite ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > copy-paste:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The basic difference is that
> > >
> > > /usr/local
> > > > >
> > > > > is for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > software
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > managed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > by the system packager, but still
> > >
> > > following
> > > > >
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > standard
> > > > > > > > > > > > > unix
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > deployment
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rules.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's why you have  /usr/local/bin ,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > /usr/local/sbin
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  /usr/local/include  etc...
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /opt  on the other hand is for
> > >
> > > software
> > > > >
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > follow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is deployed in a monolithic fashion. This
> > > > >
> > > > > usually
> > > > > > > > > > includes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > commercial
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and/or cross-platform software that is
> > > > >
> > > > > packaged in
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Windows"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > style. "
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Понедельник, 26 августа 2019, 22:49
> > > > >
> > > > > +03:00 от
> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Magda
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dmagda@apache.org>:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't disagree with Nikolay
> > >
> > > that, as a
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > database,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > needs
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > persist
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > changes to a folder different from
> > > > >
> > > > > "user.home"
> > > > > > > > > one.
> > > > > > > > > > > But
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > current
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rate of project growth and
> > >
> > > adoption, I
> > > > >
> > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > encourage
> > > > > > > > > > > > > us
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > eliminate any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > possible obstacles a user might
> > >
> > > come
> > > > >
> > > > > across
> > > > > > > > > during
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > getting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > started
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase with Ignite. Unfortunately,
> > >
> > > folders
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "user.home"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > imply
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a significant restriction - the
> > >
> > > user
> > > > >
> > > > > needs to
> > > > > > > > > allow
> > > > > > > > > > > > > access
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > folders
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /lib, /etc; which can make every
> > >
> > > getting
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > started
> > > > > > > > > > demo
> > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > app
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fail.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, today, I'm casting my vote
> > >
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > "user.home"/ignite/work
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directory.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please don't forget about Windows
> > >
> > > and
> > > > >
> > > > > MacOS.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 7:09 AM
> > >
> > > Pavel
> > > > >
> > > > > Tupitsyn
> > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ptupitsyn@apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for  ~/.ignite/work
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As Petr mentioned above, this
> > > > >
> > > > > translates well
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Windows
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MacOS
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too, we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can use "home directory" term in
> > > > >
> > > > > documentation
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > works
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OS.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 4:03 PM
> > >
> > > Nikolay
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Izhikov
> > > > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nizhikov@apache.org >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK server admin expects
> > >
> > > software
> > > > >
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > > store
> > > > > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > data
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /var/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > directory, not in /home
> > >
> > > directory.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Docker age, packages are
> > >
> > > becoming
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > extinct.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't agree with that, but
> > >
> > > seems,
> > > > >
> > > > > it's not
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > subject
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. :)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we don't even have very good
> > >
> > > packages
> > > > >
> > > > > today
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do you think we don't have
> > >
> > > good
> > > > >
> > > > > packages?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is wrong with the current
> > >
> > > one?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also think we should not
> > >
> > > copy what
> > > > >
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > DBMS
> > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ease-of-use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is usually lacking
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should define 'easy-of-use'
> > >
> > > here.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience with the modern
> > > > >
> > > > > dbms(postgres
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > mysql)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > different.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > В Пн, 26/08/2019 в 15:47
> > >
> > > +0300, Ilya
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Kasnacheev
> > > > > > > > > > > > > пишет:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it is 2., because if
> > >
> > > a node
> > > > >
> > > > > is run
> > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > binary
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > distribution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it has its root as a ignite
> > >
> > > work
> > > > >
> > > > > directory.
> > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > argument
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for keeping data under
> > >
> > > current dir -
> > > > >
> > > > > Ignite
> > > > > > > > > > binary
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > distribution
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > does it, why should embedded
> > >
> > > scenario
> > > > >
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > different?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Docker age, packages are
> > >
> > > becoming
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > extinct.
> > > > > > > > > > > Nobody
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wants
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anymore,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anyway. I don't see why we
> > >
> > > should aim
> > > > >
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very good packages today,
> > >
> > > and nobody
> > > > >
> > > > > wants
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > contribute
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > towards
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > improvement.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also think we should not
> > >
> > > copy what
> > > > >
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > DBMS
> > > > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > since
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ease-of-use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is usually lacking (this is
> > >
> > > from
> > > > >
> > > > > someone who
> > > > > > > > > had
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > support
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mysql
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pgsql
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > deployments).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zhenya Stanilovsky
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > >



-- 
Best regards,
Ivan Pavlukhin


Mime
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