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From Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupit...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Making Ignite Collaboration 100% Open and Transparent
Date Mon, 02 Sep 2019 09:55:39 GMT
Andrey is right, dev list is our primary form of communication, and for
many good reasons.

Other forms of communications are fine, but all discussions/decisions
should be reflected on the dev list in one form or another.
- Had a chat in slack and agreed on something? Write a summary to the dev
list
- Had a meeting? Recording is great, but please post meeting minutes in
text form to the dev list

Thanks,
Pavel

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 11:23 PM Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org> wrote:

> Andrey,
>
> I'm not insisting to replace dev list with Slack or always react to Slack
> messages. It's up to us to decide where and with what frequency to respond.
> My suggestion is just to have Slack as an extra tool for the Ignite dev
> communications (no user support).
>
> I also prefer either email conversations (time to think, no commitments to
> respond ASAP) or phone calls (make things done now). But sometimes Slack
> comes handy. For instance, I'd like to have a faster channel to talk to
> Nikolay Izhikov, Anton Vinogradov or Roman Shtykh on Ignite related tasks
> discussed initially on the dev.
>
>
> -
> Denis
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 6:04 AM Andrey Gura <agura@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Why chat is called chat? [1] Just ignore modern definitions :) Chat is
> > "bla-bla-bla".
> >
> > IMO, there are no any pros for using Slack in order to make Ignite
> > Collaboration 100% Open and Transparent. Chat is just garbage of some
> > phrases that aren't structured into discussions (please, don't talk me
> > about threads in Slack, they are useless).  So  transparency isn't
> > chat's property. If some topics have parallel discussion we will have
> > as result something like salad "Asynchronous":
> > tomacucumtoes,bersmayonn,aise. Moreover, the same salad we will have
> > for discussion of one topic by many members.
> >
> > Mailing list is the best mean for easygoing interaction. It
> > asynchronous by nature and doesn't have any means for pressure to
> > community members (like notifications). Discussions on mailing list
> > are organized into threads and any new message to the thread will
> > follow up thread to the top of unread messages. All you need and
> > nothing more.
> >
> > Mailing list are indexed by search engines while Slack channels
> > aren't. It is stone in the garden of openтess.
> >
> > I always can refer to discussion on mailing list. But it's impossible
> > for discussion in Slack channel due to reasons mentioned above.
> >
> > I do not mind the idea as a whole. Chat could be nice and fun. But
> > openness, transparency, and also important searchability, it is all
> > about mailing lists, not chats.
> >
> > [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chat
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 12:40 AM Павлухин Иван <vololo100@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > + Meeting minutes
> > >
> > > 2019-08-28 22:29 GMT+11:00, Alexey Zinoviev <zaleslaw.sin@gmail.com>:
> > > > I am totally support the idea with the planned and widely announced
> > Hangout
> > > > meeting between commiters and contributers and posting the link to
> the
> > > > dev-list with the special Topic Name and short agenda. Maybe, the
> > recorded
> > > > video could be added to the YouTube (or to another platform) to share
> > with
> > > > the community members.
> > > >
> > > > пн, 26 авг. 2019 г. в 22:23, Amit Chavan <achavan1@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Denis,
> > > >>
> > > >> I really like the initiative for transparency and collaboration. Are
> > > >> there
> > > >> any plans to help get new contributors up to speed with the project
> > where
> > > >> they can contribute effectively? Sometimes it can be intimidating
to
> > > >> start
> > > >> on a large project without some help or advice. Maybe assigning a
> > mentor
> > > >> or
> > > >> an existing committer can be useful or some slack channel people can
> > ping
> > > >> on. I am starting new on the project and have picked out newbie
> ticket
> > > >> from
> > > >> the Jira board. As I make myself familiar with the code base maybe
> its
> > > >> good
> > > >> to have some direction on which area should I focus more on etc.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> Amit
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 11:54 AM Denis Magda <dmagda@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > Folks, let me share more details on why Anton started the
> > conversation
> > > >> > about Ignite Slack:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/The-ASF-Slack-td43233.html
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Recently, a group of GridGain and Sberbank committers of Ignite
> has
> > met
> > > >> to
> > > >> > discuss how to make our community more transparent and open.
Anton
> > and
> > > >> > I
> > > >> > took part in that meeting. The primary problems we see in regards
> to
> > > >> > transparency and openness are as follows:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >    - A lot of discussions on the dev list abrupts suddenly and
> it's
> > > >> unclear
> > > >> >    whether a discussion is abandoned or something else is going
on
> > in
> > > >> > the
> > > >> >    background with a task/bug/improvement. In many cases, we
tend
> to
> > > >> > fall
> > > >> > back
> > > >> >    to faster communication ways like instant messaging, calls,
or
> > > >> > face-to-face
> > > >> >    meetings that are not visible to the rest of the community.
> > Emails
> > > >> (dev
> > > >> >    list) are the right communication channel but not for all
of
> the
> > > >> stages.
> > > >> >    - Change reviews seem to be in a chaotic state. Sometimes
it
> > takes
> > > >> many
> > > >> >    rounds for a committer to urge another committer to do a
> review.
> > In
> > > >> many
> > > >> >    cases, the other committer might be simply overwhelmed with
> > regular
> > > >> > tasks
> > > >> >    imposed by an employer. It will be good to come up with some
> > public
> > > >> >    tracking approach that will help us all to see who and when
> will
> > be
> > > >> > able to
> > > >> >    review certain changes and make them to Ignite.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > To address the problems we want to propose the following:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >    - Keep using dev list the way you do today. No changes need
to
> be
> > > >> > done
> > > >> >    here.
> > > >> >    - Introduce Ignite Slack for instant messaging across all
the
> > > >> community
> > > >> >    members who are obviously employed by different companies.
> Ignite
> > > >> > PMC
> > > >> > will
> > > >> >    be managing channels for various topics. Go to Slack when
email
> > (dev
> > > >> > list)
> > > >> >    conversation is no longer effective, the way we do daily,
no
> > need to
> > > >> >    complicate our lives just because we work on an open-source
> > project
> > > >> >    together.
> > > >> >    - Two or more committers need to talk verbally? Go ahead and
> > > >> > schedule
> > > >> a
> > > >> >    meeting with Google Hangouts or another tool. Send an invite
to
> > the
> > > >> dev
> > > >> >    list for those who'd like to join and listen or share opinion.
> > Want
> > > >> > to
> > > >> > talk
> > > >> >    in your native language? Go ahead and put a disclaimer that
a
> > > >> > conversation
> > > >> >    will be in Chinese, Russia, French, whatever. Simple and open.
> > > >> >    - Don't know how soon you'll be able to review some changes
> and,
> > > >> > thus,
> > > >> >    ignoring other committers requests? GridGain and Sberbank
are
> > ready
> > > >> > to
> > > >> >    propose a solution here. Both vendors use an approach to
> > cooperate
> > > >> > between
> > > >> >    GridGain and Sberbank committers. Now we'd like to make it
> fully
> > > >> > open
> > > >> > and
> > > >> >    adjust for community needs if required.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Thoughts, suggestions? I think we'll schedule a community meeting
> to
> > > >> finish
> > > >> > the conversation or discuss any cornerstone points. But start
with
> > your
> > > >> > questions first.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > -
> > > >> > Denis
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards,
> > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> >
>

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