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From Nikolay Izhikov <nizhi...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [discussion] using custom build of H2 for Ignite
Date Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:09:09 GMT
Ivan.

> I suppose that I did not ever claim such thing

Thanks for clarifing :)


> GitHub project outside any commercial company accounts, there all Apache committers added
as collaborators may work.
> Sounds nice for me as well.

+1 from me if it compatible with Apache policies.


В Ср, 10/07/2019 в 14:59 +0300, Павлухин Иван пишет:
> Nikolay,
> > Why we should close H2 fork from Ignite commiters in the first place?
> 
> I suppose that I did not ever claim such thing. I think we are
> discussing various options. And ones might be simpler and others might
> be harder.
> 
> Dmitriy,
> 
> To my shame I am not very competent in licensing and related
> questions. I mostly think about how the problem can be solved
> technically. If something is against Apache policies then we
> definitely can go with it (would be great to get a reference to such
> policies).
> 
> > GitHub project outside any commercial company accounts, there all Apache committers
added as collaborators may work.
> 
> Sounds nice for me as well.
> 
> And I would like to return to the beginning.
> 1. What do we want? Improve SQL in Ignite.
> 2. How do we want to do it? In the most convenient "legal" way.
> 
> Perhaps there are other bright thoughts how to keep it simple?
> 
> ср, 10 июл. 2019 г. в 14:18, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > 
> > Wearing the hat of Apache Ignite PMC:
> > I'm against starting with dependency on GridGain code in any case. Gridgain
> > can do its own forks of both.
> > 
> > We all know how much influence the company has on the community and adding
> > one more (I remind there is gridgain:shmem)
> > means the open-governed solution is dependent on closely-governed. Would
> > you use something open-source if it depends on binaries? I don't care about
> > license in that case.
> > 
> > you can count on '-1' from my side.
> > 
> > GitHub project outside any commercial company accounts, there all Apache
> > committers added as collaborators may work.
> > 
> > 
> > ср, 10 июл. 2019 г. в 13:28, Юрий <jury.gerzhedowich@gmail.com>:
> > 
> > > Agree with Ivan.
> > > 
> > > We can start work with H2 fork owned by GG and decide change it later in
> > > case it will bring some issues to Ignite community. Currently I don't see
> > > any issues here.
> > > 
> > > I'm worried about the issue, with process to synchonize changes H2 fork and
> > > Ignite. As possible solution it could be as follow:
> > > Ignite has dependency only to released version of H2 fork.
> > > Then we could modify the fork in any time without compatibility issues.
> > > When new feature is ready to use by Ignite need to modify code of Ignite
> > > and change dependency version for H2 fork.
> > > However H2 for in the case should be release more often than Ignite.
> > > 
> > > WDYT?
> > > 
> > > ср, 10 июл. 2019 г. в 13:08, Павлухин Иван <vololo100@gmail.com>:
> > > 
> > > > Nikolay,
> > > > 
> > > > Could you please elaborate why is it "closed source"?
> > > > 
> > > > > What the difference for the Ignite community?
> > > > 
> > > > The difference is similar to using version X and version Y of the same
> > > > library. Version Y might be better.
> > > > 
> > > > > I think all Ignite commiters should have write priveledges to H2
fork.
> > > > 
> > > > I agree, it is quite natural. Actually, my only point is that we can
> > > > do it at any point later, cannot we?
> > > > 
> > > > ср, 10 июл. 2019 г. в 12:25, Nikolay Izhikov <nizhikov@apache.org>:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Ivan
> > > > > 
> > > > > We have closed source code dependency for now owned by H2 owners.
> > > > > With new fork we will have the same closed dependency owned by Grid
> > > 
> > > Gain.
> > > > > 
> > > > > What the difference for the Ignite community?
> > > > > 
> > > > > > 2. Anyways some process must be established for merging changes
> > > > > > requiring changes in h2 library. So, I suppose it should be
review of
> > > > > > changes in 2 repositories.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The question is - *Who can apply those changes*.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I think all Ignite commiters should have write priveledges to H2
fork.
> > > > > 
> > > > > В Ср, 10/07/2019 в 11:30 +0300, Павлухин Иван пишет:
> > > > > > Folks,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I would like to highlight a couple of points.
> > > > > > 1. Perhaps it is not so crucial where is this fork located if
the
> > > 
> > > code
> > > > > > is publicly available and can be cloned to another repository
easily.
> > > > > > We can relocate code and use it at any point in future.
> > > > > > 2. Anyways some process must be established for merging changes
> > > > > > requiring changes in h2 library. So, I suppose it should be
review of
> > > > > > changes in 2 repositories.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Now (and beforehand) we use original h2. And how many of us
were ever
> > > > > > interested what changes were made in h2? So, perhaps for the
first
> > > > > > time we can start with GG fork? And if later on some problems
with
> > > > > > that appear we can clone it and use that new fork without much
> > > > > > trouble, can't we?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ср, 10 июл. 2019 г. в 09:52, Nikolay Izhikov <nizhikov@apache.org>:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hello, Denis.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Nickolay, as for that fork which is in GG codebase
- GridGain is
> > > 
> > > a
> > > > major
> > > > > > > > contributor and maintainer but the others are welcomed
to send
> > > > > > > > pull-requests.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Can we make this fork maintained by Ignite Community?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > With all respect to Grid Gain as an author of Apache Ignite
I don't
> > > > 
> > > > like when some huge dependencies
> > > > > > > (incompatible with community-driven analogue) belongs to
the
> > > > 
> > > > enterprise.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > This leads us to the situation when Grid Gain will decide
which
> > > > 
> > > > features will be added to the SQL engine and which not.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > В Пн, 08/07/2019 в 13:51 -0700, Denis Magda пишет:
> > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > To make this fully-vendor neutral even at the originating
> > > > 
> > > > repository level,
> > > > > > > > we can create and work with the H2 fork as a separate
Github repo
> > > > 
> > > > (separate
> > > > > > > > project governed and maintained by Ignite community).
That repo
> > > > 
> > > > can't be
> > > > > > > > part of Ignite due to license mismatch. Thus, during
release
> > > > 
> > > > times, we need
> > > > > > > > to assemble a binary (maven artifact) from that fork.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > However, it's not clear to me how to use those sources
during the
> > > > 
> > > > dev time?
> > > > > > > > It sounds like Ignite can use only the binary (Maven)
artifact
> > > > 
> > > > that has to
> > > > > > > > be updated/regenerated if there are any changes. *SQL
experts*,
> > > > 
> > > > could you
> > > > > > > > please step in?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Nickolay, as for that fork which is in GG codebase
- GridGain is
> > > 
> > > a
> > > > major
> > > > > > > > contributor and maintainer but the others are welcomed
to send
> > > > > > > > pull-requests.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 9:26 AM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > 
> > > dpavlov@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > As you know, some time ago I've started a discussion
about
> > > > 
> > > > removing
> > > > > > > > > dependence from gridgain:shmem. Ignite community
seems to be
> > > 
> > > not
> > > > so much
> > > > > > > > > interested in this removal, for now. So once
added it could
> > > 
> > > stay
> > > > here
> > > > > > > > > forever. Reverse dependency direction seems to
be more natural.
> > > > 
> > > > It is like
> > > > > > > > > the open-core model.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I feel more comfortable if all Ignite dependencies
are released
> > > > 
> > > > as part of
> > > > > > > > > the Ignite code base, or some open governed project
with a
> > > > 
> > > > license from
> > > > > > > > > Category A https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > It is true that H2 has Category B license, so
derivative can't
> > > > 
> > > > be committed
> > > > > > > > > into ASF repository.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > What if we consult with legal@apache.org to find
additional
> > > > 
> > > > ways to donate
> > > > > > > > > forked version into ASF codebase? We anyway need
their approval
> > > > 
> > > > because
> > > > > > > > > gridgain/h2 has a non-standard license, so we
should approve
> > > > 
> > > > including
> > > > > > > > > non-standard licensed component it the product.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > чт, 4 июл. 2019 г. в 18:57, Denis Magda
<dmagda@apache.org>:
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Igniters,
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > As you know, Ignite SQL engine is tightly
coupled with the H2
> > > > 
> > > > database
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > provides basic parsing and query execution
capabilities.
> > > 
> > > This
> > > > synergy
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > has
> > > > > > > > > > worked well for a while until Ignite SQL
engine got a much
> > > > 
> > > > broader
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > adoption
> > > > > > > > > > for all sort of use cases.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Presently, there is a list of impactful
issues and
> > > 
> > > limitations
> > > > related to
> > > > > > > > > > memory management, distributed engine optimization,
and
> > > > 
> > > > queries planning
> > > > > > > > > > that require changes in H2. We've tried
to contribute to H2
> > > > 
> > > > directly with
> > > > > > > > > > no significant luck - what's needed for
our distributed
> > > 
> > > engine
> > > > is of no
> > > > > > > > > > interest to H2 community. At the same time,
we can't leave
> > > 
> > > the
> > > > things as
> > > > > > > > > > is, as long as these limitations keep Ignite
SQL engine from
> > > > 
> > > > gradual
> > > > > > > > > > evolution.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > As a solution, we created an H2 fork [1]
and did all of the
> > > > 
> > > > required
> > > > > > > > > > changes there. We would be happy to include
the fork into
> > > > 
> > > > Ignite source
> > > > > > > > > > base, but H2's license (available under
dual MPL 2.0 and EPL
> > > > 
> > > > 1.0) is not
> > > > > > > > > > compliant with Apache 2.0. However, if Ignite
starts using
> > > 
> > > our
> > > > maven
> > > > > > > > > > artifacts instead of the standard H2's ones,
then the
> > > > 
> > > > licensing issue is
> > > > > > > > > > solved.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Is the community ready to accept this solution
and swap the
> > > > 
> > > > standard H2
> > > > > > > > > > artifact with the one prepared by GridGain?
Presently, all of
> > > > 
> > > > those
> > > > > > > > > > improvements are available to GridGain customers,
but
> > > 
> > > GridGain
> > > > wants to
> > > > > > > > > > make all of them be available for Ignite
community. And
> > > 
> > > that's
> > > > the only
> > > > > > > > > > legal way we've come up with...
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > > > 
> > > > https://github.com/gridgain/gridgain/tree/master/modules/h2
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > -
> > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > Живи с улыбкой! :D
> > > 
> 
> 
> 

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