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From Dmitriy Pavlov <dpav...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Wed, 21 Nov 2018 12:25:59 GMT
Please start a vote according to
https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
Anyone can start a vote, you don't need to be a PMC.

I don't feel it is a very important issue to remove notifications from the
list, as it can be easily filtered out using mail setup. But if someone
feels it is really disturbing, please go ahead. I'm ok with GitHub
redirection, but I will not drive this topic.

ср, 21 нояб. 2018 г. в 11:40, Павлухин Иван <vololo100@gmail.com>:

> Dmitriy, let's proceed with it.
> вт, 20 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> >
> > One more thing I want to emphasize here. We can't just remove messages,
> it
> > _must_ be sent to some list, which is why we need some additional list,
> > e.g. notifications@ for this.
> >
> > So only one option to proceed here is to run a formal vote on list
> creation
> > and redirection of github/gitbox messages to a new list.
> >
> > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:23, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> >
> > > Denis, we need because contributors do not announce their
> > > intent/designs/etc manually. It is the best way ever? No, of course.
> > >
> > > We have consensus on PR removal, so let's do it and see results.
> > >
> > > пн, 19 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:11, Denis Mekhanikov <dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> >:
> > >
> > >> Dmitriy,
> > >>
> > >> If a person wants to track all new tickets, then he may go to JIRA,
> create
> > >> a filter for Ignite tickets
> > >> and subscribe to it. JIRA has a pretty flexible configuration of
> filters
> > >> and subscriptions, so you can
> > >> specify exactly what issues you are interested in, and how often you
> want
> > >> to receive these emails.
> > >> This is much more convenient and more flexible than filtering emails
> from
> > >> a
> > >> bot.
> > >>
> > >> So, most people ignore JIRA messages, and the ones who want to track
> new
> > >> tickets,
> > >> may go to JIRA and configure their own filters. I don't see, why we
> need
> > >> to
> > >> keep the forwarding to dev list.
> > >>
> > >> Denis
> > >>
> > >> пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:30, Павлухин Иван <vololo100@gmail.com>:
> > >>
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> >
> > >> > Can we collect opinions about keeping messages of mentioned types on
> > >> > dev list? From my side (+ means keeping on dev list):
> > >> > TC bot +
> > >> > Jira -
> > >> > GitHub -
> > >> > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:25, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Importance is hardly definable and it is not possible that
> importance
> > >> is
> > >> > > equal for everyone. You can say about other human emails it is not
> > >> > > important if some product area is not interesting for you. So I
> can
> > >> only
> > >> > > understand the terms: email needs action/does not need action.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If some contributor never reacted to JIRA notification he or she
> may
> > >> > think
> > >> > > it is not important. But even we have a majority of contributors
> who
> > >> > > ignores JIRA, it does not mean it is a right decision to switch it
> > >> off.
> > >> > We
> > >> > > don't play in a democracy, hopefully.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > My suggestion now: keep showing an excellent example of
> human-human
> > >> > > interaction, announces, etc from all Ignite veterans (especially,
> > >> PMCs),
> > >> > so
> > >> > > newcomers can use the same approach.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > If PRs removal to notifications@ will show a positive tendency in
> > >> > > human-human interaction, I can easily agree with the second step.
> Only
> > >> > > practice is truth criteria.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 22:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> vozerov@gridgain.com>:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > We want important emails to be easily observable. This is the
> only
> > >> > goal.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:51, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > I suggest to think in another paradigm, let's not classify
> emails
> > >> to
> > >> > be
> > >> > > > > automatically issued or not, lets separate emails to other
> > >> classes: a
> > >> > > > > needed action from humans or not needed.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > If you don't have any interest in a change announced by JIRA
> issue
> > >> > > > created
> > >> > > > > email, you can just skip. If you can help with comments,
> review,
> > >> > etc, you
> > >> > > > > can become watcher or comment ticket, you can also point to
> > >> > duplicate.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > In that paradigm,
> > >> > > > > A) PR is perfectly ok to be redirected to notifications@ .-
> PR
> > >> > creation
> > >> > > > > does not require any action from anyone.
> > >> > > > > B) JIRA - I'm not sure (maybe as a second step, if we will see
> > >> > > > contributors
> > >> > > > > will write about important tickets). And instead we can
> discuss
> > >> Open
> > >> > ->
> > >> > > > > Patch available transition, as a reviewer needed.
> > >> > > > > C) TC Bot - I'm sure - should never be redirected. Hopefully,
> it
> > >> > will not
> > >> > > > > generate any alerts.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > I hardly understand goal: is our target metric - message
> count to
> > >> be
> > >> > as
> > >> > > > > less as possible? (extreme - 0 emails, let's not write here at
> > >> all,
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > can
> > >> > > > > get 0). Who can explain what do we want from redirection?
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:28, Sergi Vladykin <
> > >> > sergi.vladykin@gmail.com>:
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > > I also would like to separate all the automated stuff.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Sergi
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:58, Павлухин Иван <
> > >> vololo100@gmail.com>:
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Oleg,
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > I join to Dmitriy. I found your summary quite interesting.
> > >> > > > > > > пт, 16 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:12, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> dpavlov@apache.org
> > >> > >:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Oleg,
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > excellent research! It allows me to avoid bothering
> > >> community
> > >> > > > > > developers
> > >> > > > > > > > once again.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Thank you for your efforts and for contributing to this
> > >> > discussion.
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > >> > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 23:14, Denis Magda <
> > >> dmagda@apache.org>:
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Let's move git notifications to a separate list. As
> for
> > >> > JIRA, not
> > >> > > > > > sure
> > >> > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > bothers me, it took me several minutes to set up all
> the
> > >> > filters
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > spread
> > >> > > > > > > > > the messages out across specific folders. Otherwise,
> some
> > >> of
> > >> > us
> > >> > > > > might
> > >> > > > > > > > > ignore subscribing to jira-list and would miss
> > >> notifications
> > >> > when
> > >> > > > > > their
> > >> > > > > > > > > input is needed.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > --
> > >> > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:03 PM Vladimir Ozerov <
> > >> > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > I am not referring to some "authoritative ASF
> member"
> > >> as a
> > >> > > > guide
> > >> > > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > us.
> > >> > > > > > > > > We
> > >> > > > > > > > > > are on our own. What I meant is that at some point
> in
> > >> time
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > > were
> > >> > > > > > > > > pointed
> > >> > > > > > > > > > to an idea, that tons of automated messages has
> nothing
> > >> to
> > >> > do
> > >> > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > healthy
> > >> > > > > > > > > > community. Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 10:15 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > What incubator mentor do you refer to? Incubator
> > >> member
> > >> > are
> > >> > > > asf
> > >> > > > > > > members
> > >> > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > well.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > I was involved at least to 3 discussions at the
> list
> > >> > started
> > >> > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > Jira
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issue created.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > If others were not involved, it do not convince
> me its
> > >> > is not
> > >> > > > > > > useful to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > keep forwarding.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:23 Vladimir Ozerov <
> > >> > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > >> > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitry,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > What Apache member do you refer to?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 21:10, Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you know what to watch if new tickets
> are
> > >> not
> > >> > > > > > forwarded?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, PRs are ok to remove since it is
> duplicate
> > >> to
> > >> > > > jira,
> > >> > > > > > but
> > >> > > > > > > jira
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > removal
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > does not make any sense for me.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Com dev folks instead suggest to forward all
> > >> > comments and
> > >> > > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > > > > activity
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > github to the list. So if Apache member will
> > >> confirm
> > >> > it
> > >> > > > is
> > >> > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > useful
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow dev. list watchers see new issues on the
> > >> list
> > >> > we
> > >> > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > continue
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. Openness is needed not for
> veterans
> > >> but
> > >> > for
> > >> > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > members and users who is subscribed to the
> list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 21:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <
> > >> > > > > > > ptupitsyn@apache.org>:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal emails for _watched_ JIRA tickets
> are
> > >> very
> > >> > > > > useful.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Emails to everyone are not.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for separate mailing list for all
> automated
> > >> > emails.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think we can avoid automated emails
> > >> > completely,
> > >> > > > > but
> > >> > > > > > > dev
> > >> > > > > > > > > > list
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be human-only.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So separate list is the only way.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 8:11 PM Vladimir
> Ozerov
> > >> <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Completely agree with Denis. Tons of
> generated
> > >> > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > health are not relevant. Currently we
> > >> obviously
> > >> > have
> > >> > > > > too
> > >> > > > > > > much
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > tickets
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > too little communications. This is bad.
> But
> > >> > whether
> > >> > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > accumulate
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff here or in some other place is not
> > >> > important at
> > >> > > > > > all,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > provided
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can point dev-list readers to JIRA
> channel.
> > >> And
> > >> > as
> > >> > > > far
> > >> > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > stuff,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this was one of very serious concerns of
> our
> > >> > mentors
> > >> > > > > > during
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > incubation
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phase - too many tickets, too little real
> > >> > > > > communications.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Splitting
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > message
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flows will help us understand where we
> are.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And another very interesting thing is how
> PMCs
> > >> > treat
> > >> > > > > all
> > >> > > > > > > these
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages -
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they ignore them. When I come with that
> > >> problem,
> > >> > one
> > >> > > > > PMC
> > >> > > > > > > > > proposed
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > solution
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - "just filter them like I do". Then I,
> > >> another
> > >> > PMC,
> > >> > > > > > > answered -
> > >> > > > > > > > > > "I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > do
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > know how to filter them". Finally, third
> PMC,
> > >> who
> > >> > > > also
> > >> > > > > > > filters
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > these
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages, helped me create proper filter
> in
> > >> > GMail.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many
> > >> PMC,
> > >> > who
> > >> > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > expected
> > >> > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand project very well and follow a
> lot
> > >> of
> > >> > > > > > > activities,
> > >> > > > > > > > > find
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > useful
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to *remove* JIRA emails from their
> inboxes in
> > >> > order
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > > > ...
> > >> > > > > > > well
> > >> > > > > > > > > > ...
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > understand what is going on. If Ignite
> > >> veterans
> > >> > do
> > >> > > > not
> > >> > > > > > find
> > >> > > > > > > > > these
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails useful, then I do not know who
> else can
> > >> > > > benefit
> > >> > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > them.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis
> > >> Mekhanikov
> > >> > <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
> filter.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I doesn't mean we should make them do
> it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do JIRA messages help?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want do discuss something –
> write to
> > >> dev
> > >> > > > list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want a code review – write to dev
> > >> list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have an announcement – write to
> dev
> > >> > list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see, how JIRA messages can
> replace
> > >> any
> > >> > of
> > >> > > > > these
> > >> > > > > > > > > points.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Literally nobody ever answered a message
> > >> from
> > >> > JIRA
> > >> > > > > bot.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think, that only watchers of JIRA
> tickets
> > >> > should
> > >> > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > notified
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > updates.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no point in sending messages to
> > >> > everyone.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy
> > >> Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe Igniters can set up a
> filter.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket is an intention to be
> done by
> > >> > > > > > contributors
> > >> > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > future.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If PMC member admits decisions are
> made
> > >> off
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > list
> > >> > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > just
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > provided
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fact-in-the-past for others - it
> really
> > >> signs
> > >> > > > poor
> > >> > > > > > > > > community
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > health.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > for
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > me, it is not reasonable to fight with
> > >> JIRA
> > >> > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > it is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grow a culture of on-list
> development. If
> > >> we
> > >> > > > don't
> > >> > > > > > > have it,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remain here.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis
> > >> > Mekhanikov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want people to act openly and
> > >> > > > > > > community-friendly,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > then
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > we
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > make
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it a part of the required
> development
> > >> > process.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise people just won't care
> about
> > >> it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open
> for
> > >> > > > everyone,
> > >> > > > > > so
> > >> > > > > > > no
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > openness
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > violated if we made a separate
> mailing
> > >> > list for
> > >> > > > > > bots.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to
> search
> > >> > > > through,
> > >> > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > emails.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you write anything to the dev
> list,
> > >> then
> > >> > > > only
> > >> > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > once,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > who
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > spent
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > half
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an hour, configuring the email
> filters
> > >> > will see
> > >> > > > > it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Others won't notice it, because it
> will
> > >> get
> > >> > > > lost
> > >> > > > > > > among
> > >> > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > flood
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spam
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > messages from bots.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are interested in receiving
> the
> > >> JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > notifications,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > could
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even
> > >> > ignite-jira)
> > >> > > > > > > mailing
> > >> > > > > > > > > > list,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and keep track of what happens
> there. It
> > >> > would
> > >> > > > > > > simplify
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > filtering,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you should only filter out the
> > >> > corresponding
> > >> > > > > > > recipient.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Currently if you want to filter out
> all
> > >> > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > bots,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > enumerate all possible topics, that
> bots
> > >> > may
> > >> > > > > > > generate.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And since the number of bots only
> grows
> > >> > with
> > >> > > > > time,
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > filter
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > kept in actual state, otherwise
> messages
> > >> > will
> > >> > > > > spill
> > >> > > > > > > into
> > >> > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > inbox.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58,
> Dmitriy
> > >> > Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Denis,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Another side of this decision is
> the
> > >> > openness
> > >> > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since not all contributors pay
> > >> attention
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > run
> > >> > > > > > > their
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - to announce important features,
> and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Draft designs openly
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the
> > >> list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only
> way
> > >> to
> > >> > keep
> > >> > > > > > Ignite
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > development
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > easy
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > follow by subscribing to dev.
> list.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we came to practice that all
> > >> > contributors
> > >> > > > > > > announce
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > features
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed.
> Now it
> > >> > can't.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which problem we can solve by
> removing
> > >> > JIRA
> > >> > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > list?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34,
> Denis
> > >> > > > Mekhanikov
> > >> > > > > <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guys,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I vote for moving automatically
> > >> > generated
> > >> > > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > > > to a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > separate
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mailing
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list (maybe except most
> important
> > >> > ones).
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What we have now makes the
> Nabble
> > >> > portal an
> > >> > > > > > > absolute
> > >> > > > > > > > > > mess
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > no
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ability
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to track human communication.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's even hard to search for old
> > >> > > > discussions,
> > >> > > > > > > because
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tickets and git commit messages
> pop
> > >> in
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > > > search
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > results.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Making every person configure
> email
> > >> > filters
> > >> > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > waisting
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody's
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just imagine, how many
> human-hours
> > >> has
> > >> > been
> > >> > > > > > > spent on
> > >> > > > > > > > > > it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We should respect time of
> others,
> > >> and
> > >> > make
> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > separation
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > on
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sending side.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Denis
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20,
> > >> Dmitriy
> > >> > > > Pavlov
> > >> > > > > <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov@apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal
> vote
> > >> on
> > >> > this
> > >> > > > > > > change,
> > >> > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > then
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > PMC
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > chair
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate
> list
> > >> for
> > >> > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Git
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > repos.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08,
> > >> > Vladimir
> > >> > > > > > Ozerov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Igniters,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would say that "set the
> > >> filter"
> > >> > is
> > >> > > > not
> > >> > > > > a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > solution.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > First,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > always possible technically.
> > >> E.g.
> > >> > I use
> > >> > > > > > > GMail and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > my
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-list
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot
> > >> > extract
> > >> > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > emails
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overall
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > flow
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with GMail capabilities.
> But the
> > >> > more
> > >> > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > things
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first place someone needs to
> > >> went
> > >> > > > through
> > >> > > > > > > that
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > generated
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nightmare?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Git messages is a spam.
> Looks
> > >> like
> > >> > > > > everyone
> > >> > > > > > > > > agrees
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this
> is
> > >> all
> > >> > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > > > importance.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > When
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > someone
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > writes
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > email to the devlist, this
> is
> > >> > likely to
> > >> > > > > be
> > >> > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > topic
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > requiring
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > attention. When someone
> creates
> > >> a
> > >> > > > ticket,
> > >> > > > > > > most
> > >> > > > > > > > > > likely
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > this
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bug,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a piece of already discussed
> > >> > issue, or
> > >> > > > > so.
> > >> > > > > > In
> > >> > > > > > > > > other
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > words -
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > average
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > devlist
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > user is likely to be
> interested
> > >> in
> > >> > > > manual
> > >> > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > very
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unlikely
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket
> > >> created"
> > >> > > > > messages.
> > >> > > > > > > Not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > important
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > information
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's
> > >> > continue
> > >> > > > > > > disucssion
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > this.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as Git - what should
> be
> > >> > done to
> > >> > > > > > > remove Git
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > messages
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49
> PM
> > >> > Dmitriy
> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest,
> is
> > >> > probably
> > >> > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > needed
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > because
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Apache
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > list
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > allows
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribing to digest.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > if
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > remember
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
> 18:28,
> > >> Petr
> > >> > > > > Ivanov
> > >> > > > > > <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mr.weider@gmail.com
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can be Jira
> notifications
> > >> > united in
> > >> > > > > > some
> > >> > > > > > > kind
> > >> > > > > > > > > > of
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > daily
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > digest?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special
> > >> filter
> > >> > > > (new
> > >> > > > > > > tasks /
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > updates
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > during
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > last
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 24
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours)
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with notification
> scheme?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at
> 18:15,
> > >> > Dmitriy
> > >> > > > > > > Pavlov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I should mention I
> > >> disagree
> > >> > to
> > >> > > > > remove
> > >> > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > issues
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > as
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > step.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to
> > >> understand
> > >> > what
> > >> > > > > > other
> > >> > > > > > > > > > people
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > are
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > going
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > project.  You always
> can
> > >> > comment
> > >> > > > if
> > >> > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > is
> > >> > > > > > > > > not
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > best
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > approach,
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find a
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and
> you
> > >> may
> > >> > > > > suggest
> > >> > > > > > > help.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR notification is
> more or
> > >> > less
> > >> > > > > > > duplicates
> > >> > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (as 1
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1..*
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PR),
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move
> Git's
> > >> > messages
> > >> > > > to
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <
> > >> > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > >> > > > б>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But we should keep
> JIRA
> > >> and
> > >> > test
> > >> > > > > > > failures.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в
> > >> 17:49,
> > >> > > > Alexey
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Kuznetsov <
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >:
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for
> e-mail
> > >> > from
> > >> > > > JIRA
> > >> > > > > > > (very
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > useful, I
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > can
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > quick
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > search
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > issue
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> there without
> visiting
> > >> > JIRA).
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting
> > >> tons
> > >> > of
> > >> > > > > > e-mails
> > >> > > > > > > from
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > GitBox
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > &
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > about
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PRs.
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what
> for we
> > >> > need
> > >> > > > > them?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move
> > >> > GitBox &
> > >> > > > > > > PRs-related
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > mails
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > first
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > see
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > how
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > it
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > goes?
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> --
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > --
> > >> > > > > > > Best regards,
> > >> > > > > > > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Best regards,
> > >> > Ivan Pavlukhin
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Ivan Pavlukhin
>
>

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