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From Vladimir Ozerov <voze...@gridgain.com>
Subject Re: Time to remove automated messages from the devlist?
Date Thu, 15 Nov 2018 17:11:30 GMT
Completely agree with Denis. Tons of generated messages and community
health are not relevant. Currently we obviously have too much tickets and
too little communications. This is bad. But whether we accumulate generated
stuff here or in some other place is not important at all, provided that we
can point dev-list readers to JIRA channel. And as far as generated stuff,
this was one of very serious concerns of our mentors during incubation
phase - too many tickets, too little real communications. Splitting message
flows will help us understand where we are.

And another very interesting thing is how PMCs treat all these messages -
they ignore them. When I come with that problem, one PMC proposed solution
- "just filter them like I do". Then I, another PMC, answered - "I do not
know how to filter them". Finally, third PMC, who also filters these
messages, helped me create proper filter in GMail.

Isn't it demonstrative enough that so many PMC, who are expected to
understand project very well and follow a lot of activities, find it useful
to *remove* JIRA emails from their inboxes in order to ... well ...
understand what is going on. If Ignite veterans do not find these generated
emails useful, then I do not know who else can benefit from them.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 7:06 PM Denis Mekhanikov <dmekhanikov@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dmitriy,
>
> > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> I doesn't mean we should make them do it.
>
> How do JIRA messages help?
> If you want do discuss something – write to dev list.
> If you want a code review – write to dev list.
> If you have an announcement – write to dev list.
> I don't see, how JIRA messages can replace any of these points.
>
> Literally nobody ever answered a message from JIRA bot.
> I think, that only watchers of JIRA tickets should be notified about
> updates.
> There is no point in sending messages to everyone.
>
> Denis
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:50, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
>
> > I do believe Igniters can set up a filter.
> >
> > JIRA ticket is an intention to be done by contributors in future.
> >
> > If PMC member admits decisions are made off the list and just provided as
> > fact-in-the-past for others - it really signs poor community health. So
> for
> > me, it is not reasonable to fight with JIRA messages it is reasonable to
> > grow a culture of on-list development. If we don't have it, JIRA should
> > remain here.
> >
> > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:30, Denis Mekhanikov <dmekhanikov@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Dmitriy,
> > >
> > > If we want people to act openly and community-friendly, then we should
> > make
> > > it a part of the required development process.
> > > Otherwise people just won't care about it.
> > > Moreover, all JIRA tickets are open for everyone, so no openness would
> be
> > > violated if we made a separate mailing list for bots.
> > > JIRA tickets are just as easy to search through, as the emails.
> > >
> > > If you write anything to the dev list, then only the once, who spent
> half
> > > an hour, configuring the email filters will see it.
> > > Others won't notice it, because it will get lost among the flood of
> spam
> > > messages from bots.
> > >
> > > If you are interested in receiving the JIRA notifications, you could
> > > subscribe to ignite-bots (or even ignite-jira) mailing list,
> > > and keep track of what happens there. It would simplify filtering,
> > because
> > > you should only filter out the corresponding recipient.
> > >
> > > Currently if you want to filter out all messages from bots, you should
> > > enumerate all possible topics, that bots may generate.
> > > And since the number of bots only grows with time, the filter should be
> > > kept in actual state, otherwise messages will spill into the inbox.
> > >
> > > Denis
> > >
> > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:58, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > >
> > > > Hi Denis,
> > > >
> > > > Another side of this decision is the openness of the development.
> > > >
> > > > Since not all contributors pay attention to run their development in
> an
> > > > open/community friendly manner:
> > > > - to announce important features, and
> > > > - Telegraph their intent
> > > > - Draft designs openly
> > > > - Submit work in chunks
> > > > - Welcome feedback along the way
> > > >
> http://shaneslides.com/apachecon/TheApacheWay-ApacheConNA2018.html#24
> > > >
> > > > we can't just remove JIRA from the list.
> > > >
> > > > Today JIRA forwarding is an only way to keep Ignite development easy
> to
> > > > follow by subscribing to dev. list.
> > > >
> > > > If we came to practice that all contributors announce important
> > features
> > > > and bugs, JIRA can be removed. Now it can't.
> > > >
> > > > Which problem we can solve by removing JIRA from the list?
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Dmitriy Pavlov
> > > >
> > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:34, Denis Mekhanikov <
> dmekhanikov@gmail.com
> > >:
> > > >
> > > > > Guys,
> > > > >
> > > > > I vote for moving automatically generated messages to a separate
> > > mailing
> > > > > list (maybe except most important ones).
> > > > > I already wrote about it here:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/Bots-on-dev-list-td34406.html
> > > > >
> > > > > What we have now makes the Nabble portal an absolute mess with no
> > > ability
> > > > > to track human communication.
> > > > > It's even hard to search for old discussions, because messages
> about
> > > JIRA
> > > > > tickets and git commit messages pop in the search results.
> > > > >
> > > > > Making every person configure email filters is waisting everybody's
> > > time.
> > > > > Just imagine, how many human-hours has been spent on it.
> > > > > We should respect time of others, and make the separation of emails
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > sending side.
> > > > >
> > > > > Denis
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г. в 13:20, Dmitriy Pavlov <dpavlov@apache.org>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > IMO we need to run a formal vote on this change, and then PMC
> chair
> > > can
> > > > > > create (or reuse) a separate list for messages from Git repos.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ср, 14 нояб. 2018 г. в 16:08, Vladimir Ozerov <
> > vozerov@gridgain.com
> > > >:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Igniters,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would say that "set the filter" is not a solution. First,
it
> is
> > > not
> > > > > > > always possible technically. E.g. I use GMail and my dev-list
> > > emails
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > already use a rule. I cannot extract generated emails from
> > overall
> > > > flow
> > > > > > > with GMail capabilities. But the more important things
- is why
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > > first place someone needs to went through that generated
> > nightmare?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Git messages is a spam. Looks like everyone agrees with
that.
> As
> > > far
> > > > as
> > > > > > > JIRA ticket creation - this is all about importance. When
> someone
> > > > > writes
> > > > > > an
> > > > > > > email to the devlist, this is likely to be important topic
> > > requiring
> > > > > > > attention. When someone creates a ticket, most likely this
> > either a
> > > > > bug,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > > a piece of already discussed issue, or so. In other words
-
> > average
> > > > > > devlist
> > > > > > > user is likely to be interested in manual messages and
is very
> > > > unlikely
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > be interested in "Ticket created" messages. Not important
> > > information
> > > > > > > overshadows important. Let's continue disucssion this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far as Git - what should be done to remove Git messages
from
> > the
> > > > > list?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Vladimir.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 6:49 PM Dmitriy Pavlov <
> > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Petr, some manual digest, is probably not needed because
> Apache
> > > > list
> > > > > > > allows
> > > > > > > > subscribing to digest. dev-digest-subsribe@ignite.apache.org
> > if
> > > I
> > > > > > > remember
> > > > > > > > this correctly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 18:28, Petr Ivanov <
> mr.weider@gmail.com
> > >:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Can be Jira notifications united in some kind
of daily
> > digest?
> > > > > > > > > Maybe we can add special filter (new tasks /
updates during
> > > last
> > > > 24
> > > > > > > > hours)
> > > > > > > > > with notification scheme?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On 6 Nov 2018, at 18:15, Dmitriy Pavlov
<
> > > dpavlov.spb@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I should mention I disagree to remove JIRA
issues as the
> > > first
> > > > > > step.
> > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > helps everyone to understand what other
people are going
> to
> > > do
> > > > in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > project.  You always can comment if it is
not the best
> > > > approach,
> > > > > > > find a
> > > > > > > > > > duplicate issue, and you may suggest help.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > PR notification is more or less duplicates
JIRA (as 1
> JIRA
> > > 1..*
> > > > > > PR),
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > may be ok to move Git's messages to
> > > > > > notifications@ignite.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > > <notifications@ignite.apache.orgб>
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But we should keep JIRA and test failures.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > вт, 6 нояб. 2018 г. в 17:49, Alexey
Kuznetsov <
> > > > > > akuznetsov@apache.org
> > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> Hi!
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I have filter for e-mail from JIRA (very
useful, I can
> > quick
> > > > > > search
> > > > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > >> there without visiting JIRA).
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> And I'm just deleting tons of e-mails
from GitBox &
> about
> > > PRs.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I don't know what for we need them?
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> May by we try to move GitBox & PRs-related
mails first
> and
> > > see
> > > > > how
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > goes?
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > > > > >> Alexey Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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