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Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 14:46:21 -0300
From: "Ivan Barrera A." <Bruce@Ivn.cl>
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Subject: Re: [users@httpd] Favorite Linux Distribution

Yep. I vote the same.
We are off-topic right now.

:o)

g.lams@itcilo.org wrote:
> The idea is that, if you don't need something, don't install it. Nobody=
 is=20
> perfect, software can have bugs, actually they have bugs: if you don't=20
> have something installed (it's fully important whether you use it or no=
t),=20
> you don't have to apply patch on it.
> The less you have, the better.=20
> For monitoring, use a central server, it's more secure and it helps in=20
> managing more than a few servers.
>=20
> Obviously, if you really need X on a server, install it.
>=20
> For the rest, better stop the discussion, people could start being=20
> irritated as it's an apache mailing list-)
>=20
> Have a nice day all
>=20
> Ga=EBl
> Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC <chad@shire.net> wrote on 09/02/2005 18.28.=
50:
>=20
>=20
>>On Feb 9, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Anthony G. Atkielski wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The GUI is another userland program.  It is no different than apache=20
>>>>in
>>>>that regard.
>>>
>>>Not true. GUIs have to have special access to the video hardware on=20
>=20
> the
>=20
>>>vast majority of operating systems (including UNIX), either because=20
>>>they
>>>can't run at all any other way or because performance is so poor=20
>>>without
>>>such access that they cannot be practically used
>>
>>It may be desirable, but is not required.  On a server, a simple frame=20
>>buffer or VGA X Server may be all that is required to get real time=20
>>data displays.  Such thigs do not require your intrusive kernel level=20
>>stuff.
>>
>>
>>
>>>. This direct access is
>>>a security breach on most modern operating systems and has a
>>>destabilizing influence on the OS.
>>
>>Prove it.  Show me the stats.  You are wrong.
>>
>>
>>>>It is possible to have specialized drivers that run at
>>>>the kernel level but is not necessary for a GUI.  Typical X servers=20
>>>>may
>>>>have these special drivers but they are not required.
>>>
>>>A GUI isn't necessary for a server, period.  Many servers run in dark
>>>rooms mounted in racks.  They don't need GUIs because they aren't even
>>>driving displays most of the time.  And when they are switched to a
>>>display, simple CGA or EGA compatibility will do.
>>
>>You make claims, but many people find the GUI attractive on the server.=
=20
>>  I agree that it is not required, but it is not the problem you state=20
>>either.
>>
>>
>>>>Having X11 installed does not make your machine less reliable.
>>>
>>>All GUIs destabilize the operating systems on which they run, just as
>>>games do ... and for similar reasons, which I've already explained.
>>
>>No they don't.  Prove it. Show me studies or test cases or data.
>>
>>
>>>>And unless you are on it all the time, which I mentioned, it does not
>>>>slow it down. An idling X Server puts no drain on your machine.
>>>
>>>It requires more disk, more memory, more system resources, all of=20
>=20
> which
>=20
>>>could be better used in running the other daemons on the machine.
>>
>>disk space is cheap, idling X or GUI takes almost no RAM, or other=20
>>system resources.   Show me data to back up your assertions.
>>
>>
>>>>And installing X does not mean you have to run it.
>>>
>>>If you aren't going to run it, you don't need to install it.
>>
>>It gives you the option if you need it.
>>
>>
>>>>The fact that setting up X is difficult has no bearing on the
>>>>reliability of the machine for server use.  User problems are not the
>>>>same as the system being less reliable.
>>>
>>>A GUI isn't just a user program; it inevitably puts hooks into the OS.
>>
>>You claimed that people having troubles setting up X to do fancy things=
=20
>>made it unsuitable for a server, making it less reliable.  You have=20
>>conveniently snipped out your part I was replying to.    Setting up X,=20
>>and difficulties in doing so, have no bearing on the reliability of a=20
>>server.  Your back answer is irrelevant as it is not what we were=20
>>talking about in this section.
>>
>>
>>>>I have X installed on my servers.  In general I do not have an X=20
>>>>server
>>>>running as I have no need.
>>>
>>>Then why have X installed?
>>
>>I explained that.  You conveniently snipped that.  So I will explain it=
=20
>>again.  It allows me to link certain applications that require it (java=
=20
>>on FreeBSD for example, which I use to run server stuff).  It also=20
>>allows me to have client applications that I can display on remote=20
>>displays, not on the server.  I can run stuff that requires X and=20
>>display it on my OS X workstation (running Apples X11 server).
>>
>>There are lots of advantages to installing X even if you are not=20
>>running an X server.  Ability to run apps for remote display is one,=20
>>and ability to build certain SW packages that require X is another.
>>
>>
>>>>Windows is a different matter.  There the GUI is inter-threaded in=20
>=20
> the
>=20
>>>>rest of the system code and there it does have a destabilizing
>>>>influence.
>>>
>>>It's no different than UNIX.  All GUIs work that way, for reasons of
>>>performance and flexibility.
>>
>>No they don't.  You ought to learn about how these things work.=20
>>Windows has put extensive GUI stuff in the kernel for performance=20
>>reasons.  Things that OS X, and other Unix systems, do not do.  This is=
=20
>>why Windows systems typically have better graphics performance for=20
>>games, web  browsers, etc than comparable unix and OS X machines.
>>
>>
>>>>Windows is a bad example.
>>>
>>>Windows is a classic example, not a bad example.
>>
>>It is a bad example as MS has made some bad design decisions.
>>
>>
>>>>It depends.  Lots of interesting system metrics apps are GUI based as
>>>>it is a lot more interesting to look at pretty graphics and graphical
>>>>representations of system metrics data than a list of numbers.
>>>
>>>It depends on one's objectives.  And you can always move the numbers=20
>=20
> to
>=20
>>>a different machine and generate the graphics there, away from your
>>>mission-critical production server.
>>
>>Not real time data feeds you can't
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>=20
>=20
>=20
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>=20
>=20

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